Another fucking spree shooting. Great.

i had no idea that vlog existed (I am now reading transcripts) and, uh, I find it troubling to say the least. I was unaware of this particular strain of misanthropic philosophy

because i'm not doing good self-care tonight i read some transcripts. idk. where i'm at lately is that i feel like people put too much stock in what killers say. trying to analyze the psychopathic mind or whatever. and it just looks like a fucking spiral to me, some fucked up miserable autistic quite possibly queer kid trying to rationalize feeling miserable. i don't see any real insight. why would you _expect_ insight, why would you think someone who did something like that would be... a reliable source on _anything_, themselves included?

and people, like, want to intellectualize the issue or "solve" or "fix" people and just don't fucking give this kid a gun, you know? don't give this kid a gun, don't teach this kid how to shoot a gun. i know, i'm preaching to the choir, but it's breathtaking to me how fucked up this whole thing is, giving this kid a gun, giving brenda spencer a gun, it's just breathtakingly stupid and toxic behavior. people like lanza and spencer and whoever else, whoever else, i just don't view them as _interesting_ or _unique_ or as having ideas worthy of _consideration_. emotions. means. those are the relevant factors. i don't give a shit how killers rationalize their acts.

People keep talking about anger and alienation. I think so far only J0rdan and frogbs have uttered the word I think is most appropriate: nihilism.

Anger might be justified. Alienation implies a feeling that one might belong somewhere, just not here.

I look at the news and I see nihilism. Normal humans ask questions like WHY. Why do they do this, how did they get this way, what can we do about it, how do we prevent it.

All those questions are worth asking and exploring, but ultimately miss the point of nihilism.

Sanity asks "why?"

Nihilism answers, "why not?"

yes, this is nihilism in a nutshell:

~Life is the imposition of value.
~Cultural values are the masochistic imposition of suffering through the deprivation of their fulfillment.
~Feral values are the innate imposition of suffering through the deprivation of their fulfillment. ~Suffering tends to serve as a life-affirming experience.
~The less you suffer, the clearer you see that value is a disease.
~Death eradicates value and thus is the solution to life.

(from the Lanza youtube videos)

these ideas are neither new nor novel, but there do seem to be a wide number of adherents to these ideas on the internet. like any other otherwise benign concepts and ideologies, those seeking out acceptance for these beliefs will be able to find other like-minded kranks out there somewhere. He had some back and forth with some other guy who wound up molesting his daughters and posting videos of them consenting.

a lot of this shit seems IDW-adjacent.

but you cannot obliterate ideologies and philosophy, no matter how abhorrent you may find it. the only solution is prevent people from getting weapons.

I use "nihilism" as all-purpose descriptor in my local Dem chats and it's caught on :)

adam lanza was a fucking idiot in addition to a mass murderer.

everyone knows that desires can never really be fulfilled. lasting contentment is not our lot in life. desire is the root of suffering but it is also what binds us to existence.

the buddha said that one way out of this trap is to disentangle consciousness from desire by cultivating mindfulness. he didnt' think death was a real way out, not only due to his belief in reincarnation, but more profoundly because escape is different than transcendence. in any sense, compassion can relieve us a bit of the burdens of the self and its yearnings.

if you don't buy this, there are other things you can believe. schopenhauer came close to lanza's idea that life is inherently bad and the will should be negated. he didn't kill himself, but killing yourself is a legitimate response to this conviction, i guess.

christians, jews, muslims, sikhs, marxist humanists, psychoanalysts, existentialists, poets and others have their own ideas of how one can find meaning and even joy in life even though life is filled with pain. fucking hamlet was able to reconcile himself to the tragic nature of existence by the end of act 5. perhaps struggling with these questions, this deep mystery, is itself a fulfilling way to spend one's time, even if one never reaches a state of something like faith.

adam lanza prevented 28 children from ever exploring these questions for themselves. FUCK. HIM. there is NO justification for that. he had no way of knowing that they would have reached the same dead ends he did.

i am not impressed by his fucking sophistry.

the solution to life

You know the Calvin & Hobbes where Hobbes says, "Wouldn't it be easier to make the map conform to the yard"?

Sorry if that's flippant, this is def not the thread for that. But I guess it's my way of saying i don't want to engage in the kind of analysis Kate is talking about.

I took an interest because there are similarities between Lanza's condition and mine. I NEEDED to see where the break occurs and i found it. I just have more love in me, thank god.

it's easy to get sucked into the allure of outward projection of intense internal negativity. as a teen, I loathed myself, mostly because I was a very lonely person because I was cripplingly shy and had no idea how to interact with people, but I didn't want to actually do anything to fix it. it was very easy to find a whipping boy and make other people the villains.

i once wrote a livejournal post (at 24!) saying I felt like spending Valentine's Day atop a tower shooting happy couples (never mind the fact that I hate violence and have never held or wanted to hold a gun - the contradiction never registered). really gross stuff. despite being someone whose beliefs ran entirely contrary to that, it was easy to fantasize about getting 'revenge' on people who had wronged me.

but for most, like me, it never progresses beyond disturbing fantasy, not least because I would guess most people who think in such toxic ways don't have access to firearms, and for many, like me, their life materially changes as they get older to where they no longer feel that way.

but some don't escape the 'us vs them' dichotomy and if, in their own mind, things progress to a point where they no longer feel any joy in life or feel that things will improve, and don't feel a need to go through the motions anymore - if they don't already have access to them, they could seek out weapons to externalize their rage as violently as possible.

this is why it doesn't matter what the motivation is, because it's the access to weapons that allows this to happen. even if you kowtowed to the "iT's mEnTaL hEaLtH, nOt GuNs" lie and physically gave counseling to every single person in the entire country, it isn't as if counseling is fixing a fucking transmission on a car. Bad habits return. Sometimes therapy doesn't work - it doesn't for everyone. Sometimes someone who has been stable for years has a traumatic event that re-opens the wounds. Sometimes you're dealing with a sociopath who doesn't actually feel remorse and can't be reached that way. And fuck, most times with shootings, you're dealing with an extreme-right wing agitator who has been programmed through extreme conservative media for years. How the fuck will therapy stop THEM? no matter what care you gave people, you'd STILL have these shootings because anybody can easily get guns. maybe the shootings would decrease, but there's no way to quantify that.

(besides, this is a stupid reason to want to give everybody counseling - it should be made available for all because IT HELPS PEOPLE FUNCTION AND ENJOY LIFE, not to merely stop people from shooting people).

hearing actual libs lean into "mentally ill folks shouldn't be allowed to own guns" as a partial solution enrages me because it plays into stupid conservative arguments. "Mental illness" (ugh) is a Mickey Mouse term to describe a wide spectrum of disorders, it isn't something you can physically SEE, it requires diagnosis, and also, many of us who suffer from any form of it belong to marginalized groups that are threatened daily by hate groups. Why should THEY not be able to possess weapons to defend themselves if some qAnon motherfucker is allowed to walk into a pizzeria with a semi-automatic weapon, or armed Three Percenters show up to threaten transgender students who are merely protesting a school board meeting? I mean, fuck, guns shouldn't exist, but if we're going to allow actual culture terrorists to own the motherfucking things, why the fuck should we stop someone who is the target of their violence from defending themselves because they take Zoloft?

How about stripping guns from the privileged, those who have actual power and use guns to maintain that power, the same people who belong to these hate groups?

we make it easy for people who are feeling violent thoughts to progress to acting on them because of how easy it is to acquire weapons. that's the whole thing. the answer is obvious, it always has been - civilians should not own handguns. we see how countries without handguns operate - and how this isn't a thing over there.

Look its definitely true that the ease of getting a firearm is the biggest contributor to this but I often wonder if there's also something uniquely American that's driving so many more people to do this. it's not like you just can't get guns in other countries. I think about how, literally the day after this happened, you still saw politicians interviewed with that stupid fucking AR-15 pin, celebrating the very gun that's being used to murder random civilians in this country. I think about Lauren Boebert (whose own district had a mass shooting not that long ago) filming herself doing cartwheels down the hall of the Capitol 2 days ago. at least during the Dubya era they tried to put on a caring face. now they're just straight up saying "can't do anything about it, sorry, stop bothering me". Not just saying they don't care but straight up rubbing it in your face. Yes they are uniquely evil but also - millions and millions of Americans are voting for these people. They put TRUMP signs on their lawns year round. They spend their days arguing with strangers online and getting mad about things they can't even define. What exactly should we expect from a country that just doesn't take anything seriously?

I'll just never make peace with the fact that millions of people in this steaming cesspit of a country have decided 100% that dead kids are an acceptable price to pay so Nervous Nestor can cosplay a fucking soldier to pick up his footlong at Subway.

all these politicians going "it's a mental health issue, killers gonna kill" need to hurl themselves directly into the sun as quickly as possible. like haven't you all spent the last 3 years actively trying to get as many people killed by COVID as possible? an experiment which actually worked, as America, the richest country on the planet, somehow wound up with by far the highest death rate per capita of any major nation?

they don't see it as an acceptable price to pay or a tradeoff, they see it as the optimal outcome for keeping people living in fear

Not to become too philosophical, but:

christians, jews, muslims, sikhs, marxist humanists, psychoanalysts, existentialists, poets and others have their own ideas of how one can find meaning and even joy in life even though life is filled with pain. fucking hamlet was able to reconcile himself to the tragic nature of existence by the end of act 5. perhaps struggling with these questions, this deep mystery, is itself a fulfilling way to spend one's time, even if one never reaches a state of something like faith

The "uniquely American thing" about it is that at most of our history, you know you'll be hated by most people you also hated but loved and even worshipped as a hero by a sick subset of the population. Win-win

Look at how many people cheered Loughner shooting Gabrielle Giffords or the Planned Parenthood "no more dead babies" shooter. You get to become a Messiah to some people.

Right now conservatives imagine that we are cheering this particular shooting since Christians died, as if we'd be happy that young elementary school children were violently shot to death.

I'll just never make peace with the fact that millions of people in this steaming cesspit of a country have decided 100% that dead kids are an acceptable price to pay so Nervous Nestor can cosplay a fucking soldier to pick up his footlong at Subway.

― Maxmillion D. Boosted (jon /via/ chi 2.0)

beautifully put

Family Guy is of course terrible now but one bit that actually summed the death cult up welll was one of them accidentally shoots Charlton Heston and apologizes and as he's dying he says "it's ok, it's your right as an American citizennnn..."

My mother this morning said "if it were their kids, we'd hear a different tune", but we wouldn't. They're ok selling out their own kids, even themselves, for guns

if it were their kids the teachers would all have AR-15s by now

you're right, that IS the only concession they're willing to make - arming teachers

(nevermind how many teachers have accidentally discharged weapons on campus)

unless they're queer teachers. of course, us queers have no business teaching kids at all. we're all terrorist groomers, apparently.

yeah are they really doing the "teachers should have guns" thing this time? seems like a big swerve from "teachers shouldn't pick books"

I think I've said it before, but can't help but think back to the teacher I had in high school who used to whip erasers at kids and once threw a chair at a another kid in anger. Definitely a good idea to give that guy an AR-15.

Well don’t worry if a teacher shoots some students we can just start arming the kids

I've posted this before, but this happened at my high school: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1993-11-25-9311250178-story.html

holy shit, how had I not heard that one before?

High school football coaches are fucking insane. One of the main reasons I quit after one season (beyond the fact that I wasn't that good anyway) was our sociopathic coach who, among other charming traits, would tape pictures of Charles Manson's infamous crazy eyes photo to the front of our lockers for "motivation".

He was trying to motivate you to take drugs, hang out with young women and commit murder?

it isn't as if counseling is fixing a fucking transmission on a car

Neanderthal otm here. "Get therapy" can be fine advice but not all therapy is equally helpful, not all therapists are equally good, and not all people go into therapy with an open mind and willingess to change.

Also frogbs bringing truth:

I think about Lauren Boebert (whose own district had a mass shooting not that long ago) filming herself doing cartwheels down the hall of the Capitol 2 days ago. at least during the Dubya era they tried to put on a caring face. now they're just straight up saying "can't do anything about it, sorry, stop bothering me". Not just saying they don't care but straight up rubbing it in your face. Yes they are uniquely evil but also - millions and millions of Americans are voting for these people. They put TRUMP signs on their lawns year round.

Can we bookmark that for the next time somebody says both parties are the same, Democrats are no better, etc. etc.?

xp O wait, here comes tabes to say something pretty much like that, never mind

i know i'm being a woodpecker here, but i don't think both parties are the same. i think both parties are making things worse rather than making them better.

Ok but why vote for the lesser of two evils?

Because it's... LESS. EVIL. Duh.

Yeah, both school shootings and turmpism seem like "outward projection of intense internal negativity" and self-loathing...

Every time I see Steve Bannon I just think that guy really hates himself and wants to see the world burn... he may have more ambition and resources, and be thinking on a grander scale, but at root it's the same motivation as any school shooter...

Ok but why vote for the lesser of two evils?

Because it's... LESS. EVIL. Duh.

― she loves me like a rock lobster (Ye Mad Puffin)

it's really not worth my trouble to engage with you on this topic any further. you do you boo.

love to have words put in my mouth

regardless of the broader q, I don't know if gun control is the best issue to get excited about what a difference a D makes

a D doesn't make nearly as much as a difference as people tend to think, i got rid of mine and honestly it was nbd

XD

the endless loop continues

https://abcnews.go.com/US/live-updates/active-shooter-louisville/?id=98470141

this is literally fucking insane... kill the citizens, spare the AR-15:

The mayor of Louisville has said Kentucky law would make him a criminal if he destroys the assault-style rifle used by a gunman in Monday’s killing of five bank employees in his city... The killer’s rifle was confiscated after police shot him dead, and Kentucky law requires officers to send it to state police officials to sell at auction.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/11/louisville-shooting-assault-style-rifle

I mean, is it really all that insane? This country has demonstrated time and time and time again that guns are worth more than human lives, so it was perhaps inevitable it would be codified into law.

I am not aware of any other culture that fetishizes guns in the way that U.S. culture does.

I mean, is it really all that insane?

IDK, here in California they mostly do gun buybacks - not auctions of weapons that have been used in a massacre
What kind of psycho would want to own something like that? (eh, that's a rhetorical question)

the fact that several Congressmen were proudly wearing AR-15 pins and lobbying to make it "the official gun of the United States" felt particularly psychotic. that would feel insane even in a country whose citizens weren't routinely being slaughtered by it.

Any gun that's confiscated by police (whether or not it's been used in a crime) should be melted down. Period.

xpost - Fwiw, Andy, I wasn't pushing back at you, it most definitely is insane and the thought that someone out there would be willing to bid on that gun makes me physically sick, I just am so fucking exasperated at this country's total willingness to sacrifice itself at the altar of gun ownership.

stuff like the pins & official gun status feels like we're in an on-the-nose ep of Star Trek, where they visit a planet with a laughably hyperfocused and allegorical culture

Jon, I totally got your point and I agree - there are legions of kooks who prefer the status quo of near-weekly gun massacres to anything like sensible regulations

"Here Bobby, hold this one! It was used to mow down five innocent people just last year, so you know it's a real killin' machine! Ain't that somethin else?"

xxp "Bones, did you leave your phaser on that planet?"

the important thing to remember about conservatives is that they are perpetually terrified, they honestly believe crime is up every single year and they think every authority figure wants to harvest the blood of their children. their entire belief system revolves around half the country being under the spell of Satan. I dunno, maybe right wing media does have a small little role in all this