Fwiw I’ve heard a lot of legal guys say this investigation was kinda weak, but that he may be fucked on the GA and classified docs ones
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 April 2023 22:39 (one year ago) link
To be fair to chait, if some conservative district was bringing similar charges against obama, i’d find it suspicious. It is an odd legal theory to make these felonies. (Obama is not an adulterer, I understand, but if he was).
― treeship., Tuesday, 4 April 2023 22:41 (one year ago) link
I'm not sure I agree, the instantaneous analysis of this by 'legal experts' on CNN, MSNBC etc. is what seems really weak, and it looks clear from his press conference that he knows what he's doing and has got a bigger case than they think he does. I don't know how the process works and Bragg didn't lay it all out in the indictments which are bare bones, but he seems to think there is ample evidence there was an ongoing conspiracy to falsify campaign records to influence an election
― Dan S, Tuesday, 4 April 2023 22:50 (one year ago) link
Whatever the case, it's gonna be a long time before this goes to trial, so I'm going to forget about this by, oh, thursday or friday as will everyone else
― Andy the Grasshopper, Tuesday, 4 April 2023 22:54 (one year ago) link
lawyers I'm hanging with suggest the same, that these charges should not have been brought, probably, but the looming charges are less easy to dismiss.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 4 April 2023 22:57 (one year ago) link
The strength of Bragg's case is that it doesn't hinge on a vaguely worded law and he has credible witnesses. The easiest part is that the statements were provably false. Beyond that they believe they can bring credible witnesses who will speak to his knowledge of their falsity, his intent to deceive, his motive for deception, and his knowledge of the illegality of that deception. If they convince a jury these are the simple facts of the case, then the legal requirements of the law would compel a guilty verdict.
It all has to go to trial first, though. That's ages away.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Tuesday, 4 April 2023 23:08 (one year ago) link
xp yes the federal and georgia charges do not seem like small potatoes to me. with this case i don’t understand how it is different from what john edwards was acquitted of but then again I am not a lawyer, just a humble poster
― treeship., Tuesday, 4 April 2023 23:25 (one year ago) link
love this (from the Guardian):
As Trump was in court, pleading not guilty to the charges, his supporters had started to drift away from their protest area. The more buttoned-down supporters – the types who will wear a hat, but can’t be bothered carrying a flag, seemed to leave first, leaving behind an assortment of kooks and weirdos who contributed to a slightly surreal atmosphere.
One woman kept saying the United Nations building, about three miles to the north, was the “Synagogue of Satan”. A man tried, in vain, to get a rather convoluted chant about gender pronouns going.
― Andy the Grasshopper, Tuesday, 4 April 2023 23:34 (one year ago) link
I don't understand why we give a shit how small fry this indictment is. Goddamn, people: celebrate it! Then get involved.
― the very juice and sperm of kindness. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 4 April 2023 23:36 (one year ago) link
yeah - salad comes before dinnerthis is just the opening course
― Andy the Grasshopper, Tuesday, 4 April 2023 23:39 (one year ago) link
so if trump went to prison would the secret service have to protect him there
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 4 April 2023 23:49 (one year ago) link
no, he'd have to join a gang of other disgraced financiers out in the yard
― Andy the Grasshopper, Tuesday, 4 April 2023 23:51 (one year ago) link
lol mookieproof, good question
― obsidian crocogolem (sleeve), Tuesday, 4 April 2023 23:53 (one year ago) link
I don’t think the indictment is ‘an odd legal theory’ or ‘small potatoes’ or that it ‘should not have been brought’, I think that that is just rhetoric we accept from lawyers
and lawyers in my experience are brainwashed by law school and in some sense are the most naive people I've ever met
― Dan S, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:02 (one year ago) link
hence why ever hack SCOTUS justice gets "brilliant" modifying their names.
― the very juice and sperm of kindness. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:03 (one year ago) link
Have any of his supporters argued that what he did was not illegal? Anyway, it really doesn't matter if it's small or big potatoes. This is our legal system. Godspeed, you big asshole, this is what often happens when you do crimes, you get charged with criminality and get a chance to defend yourself.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:32 (one year ago) link
Yeah if you don't want to be in criminal court being charged with crimes, maybe don't do so much criming like a crimey criminal all the flippin time.
― she loves me like a rock lobster (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:35 (one year ago) link
xp ok but you just posted your lawyer friends were saying charges should not have been brought
― Dan S, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:38 (one year ago) link
I'm not sure that naivety is an accurate descriptor. For a prosecutor, the question about whether to charge always has to include the questions, Can I get a conviction? And will it be sustained on appeal? I think many lawyers, with reason, question whether charging a former president with what is usually a misdemeanor, bootstrapped here into a felony, is a good idea.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:41 (one year ago) link
this just happens to be the opening salvo because it's the oldest of the myriad crimes iirc? I'll take it.
― obsidian crocogolem (sleeve), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:42 (one year ago) link
Without doubt, the Georgia and federal cases are much more serious.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:43 (one year ago) link
A classic of the genre
Donald Trump during his arraignment. Courtroom sketch by 🎨 Jane Rosenberg pic.twitter.com/DdfXkHhnUA— Reuters Pictures (@reuterspictures) April 4, 2023
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:47 (one year ago) link
Yeah, lawyer friends were just thinking lawyer strategy. There are more crimes than there are charges and trials, because prosecutors pick and choose which to pursue (or so I was told). If this were the only case it would seem desperate, but it's not, and Trump's I presume live in progress outrage I imagine is disproportionately focused on today and not the tougher stuff in store.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:49 (one year ago) link
one thing about this indictment is someone has already gone to prison for the crime and that person is a prosecution witness, so in that sense i could see a prosecutor thinking it was a pretty good choice, whether its politically a good choice idk maybe they dont care
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:50 (one year ago) link
Cohen was convicted in federal court for tax evasion, making a false statement to a financial institution, excessive campaign contributions and other federal crimes. He was also convicted of perjury in his Congressional testimony. So, crimes arising out of the same set of facts, but different crimes in different court.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:54 (one year ago) link
that argument actually resonated with the same lawyer friends.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 00:58 (one year ago) link
people are saying its small beans but you gotta think that regardless the size of the beans the prosecutions gotta think they have a very strong case here
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:00 (one year ago) link
The news here this morning was showing some pro-Trump campaign nutter speculating that all this will just whoosh him right into the white house in '24.
Which leads me to ask - please don't tell me your country allows felons, or those with felonies hanging over them, to be president. My bf says "they'll allow a president from jail if they could" but surely that isnt right please tell me that isn't right.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:00 (one year ago) link
well weve never actually elected a felon
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:01 (one year ago) link
you gotta think that regardless the size of the beans the prosecutions gotta think they have a very strong case here
That is true. "You come at the king, you best not miss."
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:02 (one year ago) link
there is no way he will be president again
many xps
Yeah, lawyer friends were just thinking lawyer strategy
which I think is naive
I’m not talking about prosecutors. Most lawyers are not prosecutors and are not having to deal with these questions. (I know you all hate prosecutors here.) I was just speaking about the lawyers I know. One of my best friends graduated from UC Berkeley's Law School. He has made a career out of being a general counsel, as a company’s main source of legal advice. He has been very successful. But when I talk to him about national politics I’m kind of taken aback by his sunny law school optimism about the legal system and law strategy
― Dan S, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:03 (one year ago) link
hate to tell you Trayce, but yes it is OK according to the law as written. there are states where felons can't own guns or vote, but I think those laws are wrong and bad and I'd probably (very reluctantly) have to agree here, if some rad progressive person with a felony ran I would want to vote for them
― obsidian crocogolem (sleeve), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:03 (one year ago) link
xp It's not naive. We don't go to court to lose.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:04 (one year ago) link
xp to sleeve I get your point, assuming you mean someone who, lets say, was arrested for an abortion or a protest sit-in or similar. It just feels wrong if its a crimimal record for going against the fabric of democracy, but now I'm getting in over my head as far as my understanding of US civics.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:05 (one year ago) link
i feel bad that everyone in the world follows our politics lol its not great
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:06 (one year ago) link
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Tuesday, April 4, 2023
ok, maybe it's just that the lawyers I know don't go to court, they manage mergers and acquisitions or are the general counsel for a company. so 'lawyer friends giving their opinion' is not relevant to me
― Dan S, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:13 (one year ago) link
lol lag we dont get much choice, the media shovel it down our throats like we're fois gras geese.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:14 (one year ago) link
its that old hollywood razzle dazzle + being the global hegemon
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 01:17 (one year ago) link
I am watching this on loop mad giggling
https://fb.watch/jIE12Qt3Kn/?mibextid=YCRy0i
― hootenanny-soundtracking clusterfucks about milking cows (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 03:10 (one year ago) link
Trumper face planting
making a felony conviction a bar to running for or holding office, aside from requiring a constitutional amendment, would just mean Bernie Sanders or Hilary Clinton would be convicted of felonies in Idaho or Florida within seconds of announcing they were running.
― the absence of bikes (f. hazel), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 04:07 (one year ago) link
it should be illegal to be a Trump and run for President.
― hootenanny-soundtracking clusterfucks about milking cows (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 04:08 (one year ago) link
he's going to win the election because the media can't help focusing on him. no other issues/themes matter.
― StanM, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 09:26 (one year ago) link
eugene debs ran for US president from jail in 1920 (his fifth run)
the actual 1920 winner was warren g. harding lol, destroyed by a scandal called "teapot dome" (which im sorry is a v funny and humiliating name for a scandal) and died in office basically of being sad and being owned
― mark s, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 09:34 (one year ago) link
― StanM, Wednesday, April 5, 2023
oh please
― the very juice and sperm of kindness. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 09:37 (one year ago) link
He hasn't come close to winning an election since he lost to Hillary Clinton in the popular vote but won the election anyway.
― Maggot Bairn (Tom D.), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 10:18 (one year ago) link
he came very close to winning vs biden
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 5 April 2023 12:29 (one year ago) link
I‘be settled on the opinion that that election was close but not nearly as close as cable news wanted us to think it was
― castanuts (DJP), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 12:32 (one year ago) link
When it comes to litigators (Ken White is one), esp. Federal litigators or lawyers who understand the federal system, I'd def. take their word over a transactional/business/contracts lawyer. A litigator has/does work with DAs and understand a *different part* of the legal system than yr business lawyers. You wouldn't get a DA to work on closing a deal/transactional stuff.
It sucks that Trump has put the country in this position but it does speak to the complexities of our legal and political systems--I agree the GA case and the docs case are much bigger potatoes. Trump doesn't even go back to court for this case until December.
fwiw I don't think there's any chance he gets close to Biden if when he runs again. WI is looking blue, and there's no way he's winning MI--which is now very blue
― a (waterface), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 12:38 (one year ago) link
the sucky part is he's exploiting a system that benefits people like him--not just white guys, but white guys in his line of work in NYC
― a (waterface), Wednesday, 5 April 2023 12:39 (one year ago) link