The Byrds: Classic Or Dud

christgau sucks pt. 1080

Uh-oh turns out these are the only ones in his Basic Rock Library: TThe Byrds' Greatest Hits, The Notorious Byrd Brothers, Sweetheart of the Rodeo First published, I think in 1980, with his first Consumer Guide collection. But you couldn't have predicted such a drastic cut while reading this 1969 round-up, for instance: "The Byrds Have Flown--But Not Far":https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/news/byrds-69.php

Robert Quine referenced the Byrds as a big early influence in a few interviews.

Marty Stuart and his Fabulous Superlatives put out a recent record that is a love letter to the Cali Cosmic Cowboy sound the Byrds pioneered.

Did not know that about Quine!
fact checking cuz caught one of those xpost Sweetheart 50th Anniversary shows that McGuinn and Hillman did with Marty Stuart and his Fabulous Superlatives, reported on back on Rolling Country, then pasted it to Sweetheart's own thread:

Just posted this on rolling country, but then realized this belongs on a proper sweetheart of the rodeo thread. so cutting & pasting:

roger mcguinn, chris hillman and marty stuart & his fabulous superlatives, sweetheart of the rodeo full album show, los angeles, tuesday night. opening night of a short-ish tour. it was ragged, loose, occasionally awkward and more than occasionally great. they did one set of truncated versions of hits and deep cuts, and then the sweetheart of the rodeo set, played in full but out of order. i got the sense that stuart and the superlatives rehearsed thoroughly on their own and mcguinn and hillman maybe not so much. they missed cues left and right, were looking down frequently for chords and lyrics, and while hillman's voice was in good form, mcguinn was having a little trouble cutting through. but their instincts for harmony are still dead-on, and stuart fit right into that. i felt like i was watching a band still working out its sound, and as a result, when something gelled, when they hit a sweet spot, it was magical. like watching a band discover itself in real time. and that second set was way better than the first. it felt like having a piece of my own dna read back to me. maybe they felt the same.

encore: two byrds classics and three tom petty classics. i was wondering if maybe they would be able to coax david crosby (who i assume still lives here though i have no idea) onto the stage for a song or two. instead we got mike campbell, who joined for "american girl" -- after which they kicked him off and, strangely, played more petty songs without him. marty stuart did a bluegrassy take on "runnin' down a dream" (thumbs up) and hillman did a fairly faithful "wildflowers," which apparently petty produced for him for an album he put out last year.

they also told some stories. they're not particularly good storytellers. damn those harmonies though.

― fact checking cuz, Thursday, 26 July 2018

The Wrecking Crew played on their debut single, but when it came time to record more songs to make their first LP, the band insisted on playing those tracks themselves. (For whatever reason, this rarely seems to get fact-checked whenever news or magazine articles mistakenly claim that the Wrecking Crew played on the whole album - it happened again with multiple outlets after Crosby died.)

Clarke is surprisingly underrated as a drummer. Listen to the drumming on “Eight Miles High,” it’s actually pretty complicated and impressive.

Here’s what Peter Lewis of Moby Grape once said to Craig Morrison about Clarke:

Peter Lewis: …to play with him was such a trip because he was this weird kind of drummer. He was so inventive.

Craig Morrison: I remember him doing something unusual: leaving out a hit that you were expecting in his rhythm, and you’d think, how does he do it ?

PL : Yeah! Right.

CM : But he got put down a fair bit for his drumming. People seemed to think he wasn’t good.

PL : Well, they’re fuckin’ crazy ! When you hear what he did on those songs like “She Don’t Care About Time” or “Set You Free This Time,” where the high hat would go off and it would be different every time. It was perfect. McGuinn was saying one time, “It takes that guy longer to learn a part than anybody I know but once he learns the fucking thing, it’s the perfect part.” It’s like Ringo Starr.

I like Stevenson like that too, ‘cause he was going to work on it. He had a funny little marching thing that he’d do that was unique and nobody else did. The “Hey Grandma” shuffles that Don played are cool. Drummers are all different. Playing folk rock with Michael was like—he’d go into some chord change and you could feel it four bars ahead of time. The whole thing would build, and you’d hit it and it would go swoosh, like taking off on another level. He could just do that so well, think of the song.

"Between the Velvet Underground, the Byrds and the jazz I was listening to, I sort of began to come up with my own style. Listening to Ascension, taking LSD (don't do this at home, kids). That's when I broke through and started hearing things on a certain level. That was pretty much how I was formed. There's also Elvis' Sun sessions, Fats Domino, Bo Diddley, James Burton, Mickey Baker and Little Richard."

https://www.furious.com/perfect/quine.html

Classic Quine quote and interview.

I’ve been dissing Michael Clarke forever. Perhaps it’s time for a relisten.

Classic Quine quote and interview.

I’ve been dissing Michael Clarke forever. Perhaps it’s time for a relisten.

Hmm. The Zing gods must be angry. Or crazy even.

As a friend says about Ringo, if you think Michael Clarke sucks, you think the Byrds suck. (see also: Nick Mason) Clarke was perfect for what they were doing, and I would be surprised if even the most skilled session drummer could've come up with what Clarke did on "Eight Miles High." I think some of the general negative feeling about Clarke comes from that session outtake -- can't remember which deluxe CD it's on -- where he threatens to quit and says stuff like, "I don't even like playing the drums!"

Negative comments about Clarke's abilities from fellow band members on this page:

http://die-augenweide.de/byrds/speak/aboutclarke.htm

The Notorious Byrd Brothers, I believe. Before David Crosby was replaced by a horse iirc.

i hate david crosby

that last letter on that page, jesus....

also checked out the new Marty Stuart record mentioned, very good stuff, not outright mimicry but definitely hits that spaced out country rock Byrds vibe very well, some great guitar playing

yeesh, yeah that letter!

people have such weird ideas about drummers — like it's more of a sport than music (see the recent drama over Meg White). Clarke certainly had his limitations, but he was awesome more often than not. It's interesting to have these guys during this period who were basically garage rock drummers being asked to really play beyond themselves. "Eight Miles High," totally — also "Why" ... Clarke pretty much lifts the entire band during the instrumental break.

that said, there's a few flying burrito bros. live things where Clarke is a total mess. (the whole band is a total mess, to be fair)

Speaking of Notorious, this is inessential but fun: "In honor of the passing of the great David Crosby, I offer this album reimagining: an alternate version of The Byrds’ classic psychedelic rock masterpiece The Notorious Byrd Brothers, which presumes David Crosby had not left the band, and is featured as an equal to Roger McGuinn. To do this, we will restructure the album to feature recordings made during the early sessions of the album, which actually featured Crosby."

tylerw otm re: the perception of drummers. I’ll often hear, “Oh, but could ____ have played with ____? Probably not!” as if that’s in any way relevant. Michael Clarke played with who he played with and sounded great with them and made them sound great. What difference does it make if he possibly couldn’t measure up to a hypothetical situation?

I usually like/love rock band drummers such as Ringo and Bill Berry, to name two favorites, but Michael Clarke always felt like where I drew the line. At least he has been replaced as least favorite Byrd by Skip Battin.

"well, everyone knows crosby got replaced by a horse. what this album presupposes is... maybe he didn't”

hahaha

I usually like/love rock band drummers such as Ringo and Bill Berry, to name two favorites, but Michael Clarke always felt like where I drew the line. At least he has been replaced as least favorite Byrd by Skip Battin.

― The Original Human Beat Surrender (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, June 1, 2023 10:56 AM (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i don't understand this at all, esp the "where I draw the line" part (feels like you're sort of slagging Ringo and Berry in a way)? what in particular are you hearing on Byrds records in terms of the drumming?

I was reading Eno’s diary and there’s a mention of listening to tapes that Quine made for him of Byrds rarities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUHQBmpN76o

what in particular are you hearing on Byrds records in terms of the drumming?

Curious about this myself. Also, I can never remember which album came first -- Turn! Turn! Turn! or Mr. Tambourine Man -- so I often have to look it up: "Is this the one with session players?" I don't hear any qualitative difference. If Clarke was such a shitty (or even just mediocre) drummer, the difference between those two records would be pretty stark.

The Wrecking Crew played on their debut single, but when it came time to record more songs to make their first LP, the band insisted on playing those tracks themselves. (For whatever reason, this rarely seems to get fact-checked whenever news or magazine articles mistakenly claim that the Wrecking Crew played on the whole album - it happened again with multiple outlets after Crosby died.)

...

― birdistheword

Aha! See, no one can even tell the difference! Blaine's a little too splashy on the hi-hat on "Tambourine," and Clarke has a heavier and more convincing groove throughout the rest of the album (especially on "Bells of Rhymney").

The Stuart group definitely nods at Bakersfield and the Dead too. There is a little thing in one video that even references an early Stones album cover.

Kenny Vaughn is a good interview and has had an interesting life and career. There is some interviews he does talking about seeing the Dead in the early 70s in Denver (among other things).

Totally not slagging Ringo, not really slagging Bill Berry, maybe just tweaking him a bit. I just don’t hear anything particularly exciting from Mike Clarke, when I listen, the way I might hear when I focus on, say, Chris Hillman.

“Where I draw the line” was just some kind of rhetorical overstatement that I will somehow never be able to live down now that you have successfully outed me as some kind of Buddy Rich Or Die fanatic.

"well, everyone knows crosby got replaced by a horse. what this album presupposes is... maybe he didn't”

I’m also waiting for y’all to accuse me of slagging on Levon Helm or not appreciating Clem Cattini.

Not a big enough fan of Christopher Mars.

Oh hey, I just discovered the awesome discofied version of “Eight Miles High” on
Flesh and Blood to distract myself while you circle the wagons.

Maybe I should go on a Pink Floyd thread and see what people are saying about Nick Mason.

it's cool sorry if that came off more aggressive than intended

You’re making me sorry, sorry somehow.

Okay, I’ll stop

One of my favourite Byrds covers is Grant McLennan's 'Ballad of Easy Rider'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAcPJfbHQro

Wow, never knew that existed, thanks! I say this and haven’t even clicked yet.

Many xxx-posts...

Surprised no-one posted the bonus track from the Notorious... reissue with the recording of McGuinn and Hillman fighting with Clarke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsVs9-W0eSQ

Maybe it was already posted upthread? Plus it’s definitely David not Roger- and he even mentions a horse!

The Troggs did it better. Crosby might be an asshole but he's right about the drumming on this track.

Lol about The Troggs.

Fairport cover Gene Clark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvWxOxme9Lw

They sure had good taste.

^love this one!

Think I first heard it as part of some BBC sessions.

Which that is, I now see in the fine print.

Yeah, I've just got it on the original Heyday, which is like 10-12 performances from the Beeb; the 2002 reissue is 20 tracks, and the 4-disc box is still around, and yeah they had taste for sure. Don't think they did any more Byrds-related material, unless some of the same trad.
The Hillmen s/t doesn't have any Chris originals, but they do a couple of Dylan songs, like this one--whole reissue is here (note inclusion of the Gosdin Brothers, later with Gene, and with Clarence White on their own late 60s The Sound of Goodbye)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8VP7kIXKDY