Posts you had second thought about and decided not to post - put them here

I seem to have missed the California housing crash.

u missed the detroit one too?

well it does happen. It happened during the 2008 recession.

yeah it’s a cycle, ppl make money going up other ppl lose money coming down and the opposite can happen too. fine if you can ride it out, not all ppl can, and that doesn’t make them good or bad or lucky and unlucky or anything else in and of itself

jesus christ are we done here

as long as you understand that anyone who has ever owned anything is in the 1%

Well, this conversation got weird fast. A few thoughts:

Difference between wealth and money.

Chris Rock had a thing about this: "Shaq is rich. The white man who signs his check is wealthy."

Personally I own a house that is almost worthless (small, cramped, crumbling, 80+ years old) but it sits on an absurdly valuable rectangle of dirt. At present there is no way out of this situation.

Where I'm taking "land isn't capital unless you're doing something with it" is that it's just dead wrong. Rare cases of real estate declining in value don't change that - and I mean, you bring up climate change and California but houses are still selling there! There's a mild penalty for the most at-risk properties, but they still have a massive amount of value. The example of old people letting their homes go to seed that you pointed to and agreed with is also nothing like that - those homes just need fixing up, like every aging man-made structure.

If meemaw and pop-pop can sell their house for $400k (but if it would have been $550k if they'd kept up with maintenance), it's still $400k more of an asset than that held by the old couple relying on Social Security and Section 8 vouchers.

Rare cases of real estate declining in value

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa

everywhere around me I see jealousy and mayhem

We definitely went over this in the buying a house c/d thread

we're flipping it

Yeah turns out owning land sucks for the land owners

landpwners

Don’t worry though, I am willing to carry my burden so the rest of you don’t have to own my land. No need to thank me. Will accept cards and home made treats in recompense though

I should really be thanking the bank who actually own my land at the moment. Always sticking up for the little guy

its strange to me how it turns from homeowner to landowner depending on the level of sarcasm required in the sentence

Tbf my home is one of those mama and pop pop about to fall over next weekend types so I use land owner unironically. Bank values my place as like 20% house 80% land

The example of old people letting their homes go to seed that you pointed to and agreed with is also nothing like that - those homes just need fixing up, like every aging man-made structure

i … never said this? did i say this?

sorry i have this bad pathological need to be clear, seems like posting less might help ... but if you mean my friends whose mom is sick it has to do with refinancing, taxation, not planning for a sick mom, etc. it’s complicated but not structural problems. in the case of the tear-downs on the block, i was also pointing to mortgage and finance stuff others already mentioned

if you don’t believe me that it happened, fine. i concede the entire argument on all points, except the specifics about this one town and whether or not i lack empathy and imagination

Nothing personal against you mate, obviously there are specific situations where your points stand, it’s just they do not constitute the general rule of land ownership which is that it will “GENERALLY SPEAKING” make you wealthier in the long term.

Sympathise with your need to be clear, best wishes to your friend.

i agree. my only point … ever … was that it is not the same as peerage, or old time caste systems

i … never said this? did i say this?

‘I agree with akm’ when that was his last post seemed like an agreement re: the point about valuable homes not being kept up?

or if we want to shift it to something we can all agree is abhorrent (other than this thread) the same guarantee as apartheid

I am confused what the argument is?

Same

In any case land is absolutely capital and some people having to concern themselves with the performance of (in investment terms) or how to maintain a valuable property kind of feels like one of those class divide issues that started all this.

If you think of it in terms of it being able to be used as collateral for actual money … like you can’t buy groceries with a fractional share of land, same with many other necessities that require payments in cash or cash equivalents. Granted if you have no cash AND no land, then you are really fucked.

xp oh ok i was talking about finance stuff, mortgages etc not structural issues. maybe the steak needing a fridge confused it. at least we can agree that land is like other assets (they all help you become wealthier and require some maintenance) even if we can’t agree on whether its more akin to owning a business or owning a car (which in the case of a taco truck could be a business) or owning a principality

I mean you’re still putting up the fundamental difference that has been pushed back at you: cars go down in value, as do steaks, land (GENERALLY) does not. It’s neither steak nor car nor business for an owner occupier, it’s an asset. No need for confusing analogies which just get further away from the truth

Sarahell writes:

you can’t buy groceries with a fractional share of land

Um, yes you kinda can? Maybe you shouldn't but you totally can.

A landowner or homeowner can call or visit a bank and say "I would like a $50,000 line of credit based on the $500,000 of equity I have in my home and/or property. Oh, also, while you're at it, give me an extra $5,000 in cash."

Then you go buy groceries with that. It's surprisingly easy.

(It may not be a great idea, long term, but it is possible.)

xp i disagree that you are stating an ironclad truth, what else should i do?

lmaooooo try googling IS A CAR AN ASSET

i can’t anymore, i’m going to put on this dunce cap and watch glengarry glenross until i figure it out

I mean you could be generous with your interpretation of what I said and add in the appreciating/depreciating sub-clause that was obviously intended by the context, but yeah fair enough a car is an asset

seems like posting less might help

A landowner or homeowner can call or visit a bank and say "I would like a $50,000 line of credit based on the $500,000 of equity I have in my home and/or property.

um, that was something I was referring to when I said "being able to be used as collateral for actual money" ... in some cases, the bank might say no. Banks do this. They say no to people who have too much debt, or they question whether there's that much equity in the property, depending on the property they might have questions about the title and other things that would delay getting the cash (e.g. racism often comes into play here)

How many banks say yes to someone without any collateral?

How do you do, fellow kids?

I am not arguing that property owners are disadvantaged vs people with the same degree of assets/wealth who aren’t real estate owners.

I am saying that having liquid assets like cash and publicly traded stock is often better than owning real estate

I have known people--not many, but some--who are saddled with properties they can neither afford nor sell, and who are essentially destitute, or at least not able to enjoy being "well off."

not this again

I feel like milo’s example of elderly people with Section 8 housing or long-term rent control whose income is just their social security payments is probably a lot more common and also scarier tbh

xpost so I can take my morning nap, is the argument here that people who have assets don't deserve to live or what is the thing

I have no interest in arguing about finance. I freely admit that I don't really understand finance (or anything, really).

But exactly one time, my wife was pregnant so I went into a bank and said, "Hi, I have a bunch of dollars. Can I please live in a house?"

The bank said, "okay," and they let me live in a house.

Fifteen years later, I went back to the same bank and said, "Hi, remember me? I have part of a house. Can I please have some dollars?"

The bank said, "okay," and they let me have some dollars.

Really? I must get my wife pregnant.

what have you people done here??

where i live - this is probably common - a house for $150,000 now sells for $300,000 because of pandemic and nobody can afford to sell because there is nowhere to move to because nobody can sell because there is nowhere to move to. because the prices are too high. its like the gift of the magi!

scott otm

absolutely

this all reminds me of that goofus & gallant strip where gallant returns a dropped wallet to its owner and goofus drops the atom bomb