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Here's Altuve's HR:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC34yua88z0

At 6:25, Ken Rosenthal actually asks him why he was signaling not to tear his shirt.

clemenza, Sunday, 30 July 2023 19:40 (nine months ago) link

Gausman had some choice words about it, don’t know if you ever saw it. Kind of shocking they never punished any players.

This Astros thing is bad!!! Guys lost jobs, got sent down, missed service time bc of how they were hit in HOU. Does anyone really think they only did this in 17? #getreal

— Kevin Gausman (@KevinGausman) November 14, 2019

a love song for connor wong (gyac), Sunday, 30 July 2023 19:44 (nine months ago) link

That's stressed in the book; nine pitchers lost their jobs right after a loss to the Astros in 2017 (one of them sued). Honestly, I think the timing of COVID and the lost season had a lot to do with it--within weeks of blowing up, the story was dwarfed by events. Also, to get people to talk, MLB had to (or at least decided they had to) offer players immunity

clemenza, Sunday, 30 July 2023 19:51 (nine months ago) link

one month passes...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6UuxPabMAAT-wA?format=jpg&name=large

mookieproof, Tuesday, 19 September 2023 20:48 (seven months ago) link

three weeks pass...

Thought it made sense to move this here. Relevant lead-in, the first six posts here:

2023 NLDS: Atlanta Braves vs. Philadelphia Phillies

I think there's legitimate room for disagreement here. As I've said many times, I'm always amused when the defender of a controversial book or movie or whatever--in this case, me and Ball Four--is surprised or annoyed that not everyone agrees with him. Ball Four divides people, even today--I get that, and if we disagree, we disagree.

With that in mind--and I've probably posted some variation on most of these thoughts already in this thread--if you're going to write Ball Four, I believe you need to write Ball Four. If you want to move the sports book forward, you can't walk up to a line of privacy, back off, and end up writing the same old sports book. If Bouton hadn't done it, someone else would have. And if no one ended up ever crossing that line, maybe we'd still think of Mickey Mantle as this 100% heroic figure who used to hang around the park for hours after the game signing autographs for kids.

It's like a friend of mine who once told me he loves the first Schoolly-D album, he just wishes it weren't so profane and so out of step with acceptable discourse today. Okay...but without that, it's not the first Schoolly-D album it's something else. If you were to take Taxi Driver and make Jodie Foster 19 instead of 12, make Travis a flawed but well-meaning vigilante instead of a racist psychopath, that might make it more acceptable to some people, but it wouldn't be Taxi Driver anymore. If you want to write Ball Four, you have to write Ball Four.

And, again, I don't think there's an ounce of malice in anything Bouton wrote, or any attempt to shame anyone. All the stupid stuff he writes about--behaviours both silly and much, much worse--he knows it's all part of the game he loves. People he has zero in common with--Gene Brabender, Fred Norman--he enjoys their company. Sibby Sisti, who's nothing but a full-time annoyance hanging around for a pension, Bouton gives him what I count as the funniest line in the book. I think even Sal Maglie, the one guy he clearly doesn't like, makes him laugh once or twice. And he of course adores Joe Schultz, and that comes through.

(I also believe Bouton when he says that, at a certain point in the season, everyone knew he was writing something. Players would come up to him and say "Here's a good story for your book." He'd drop his pen on the mound and some coach would casually pick it up without saying anything, clearly knowing something was up.)

As far as the ethics of journalism, I don't know the geography of a clubhouse, but is it taken for granted that anything overheard is printable? I'm used to the classic Hollywood treatment--All the President's Men, etc.--where the question of "Is this on the record?" was a given. Maybe that's a quaint notion that no longer applies. I will say, if the Braves know who leaked the Arcia comment, that reporter may have won the battle and lost the war. Good luck getting anybody to open up to you in the future.

I think Arcia has a legitimate complaint.

clemenza, Thursday, 12 October 2023 21:13 (seven months ago) link

I will say, if the Braves know who leaked the Arcia comment, that reporter may have won the battle and lost the war. Good luck getting anybody to open up to you in the future.


The person who reported the comment is almost certainly going to be a national and not a beat reporter who isn’t usually there and who doesn’t have the same relationship with the team. Beat reporters usually protect their sources unless they have very good reason not to because clubhouses will exclude a guy perceived to have stepped out of line. Baggarly discussed this too when he reported on Melky Cabrera failing a drug test before it was confirmed publicly.

I’m going to get fined for being right, again (gyac), Thursday, 12 October 2023 21:17 (seven months ago) link

That sounds like an important distinction I didn't acknowledge.

clemenza, Thursday, 12 October 2023 21:24 (seven months ago) link

Alex Cora was asked about this

Alex Cora was on Baseball Tonight with @Buster_ESPN and while he didn’t touch on too much with the Red Sox, he did talk about giving teams bulletin board material.

He alluded to the whole Eduardo Rodriguez situation in 2021, but the best part was his story from 2007.

After Ryan… pic.twitter.com/GVskWI32nq

— Tyler Milliken ⚾️ (@tylermilliken_) October 12, 2023

I’m going to get fined for being right, again (gyac), Thursday, 12 October 2023 22:01 (seven months ago) link

This continues to roll on. The reporter was named as Cespedes BBQ’s Jake Mintz. First this happened:

"And then some jackoff comes in at the end of the season that gets a credential, God only knows why. And the clubhouse is a sacred space." Alanna Rizzo went off on Jake Mintz's clubhouse reporting on MLBN's "High Heat" Thursday. pic.twitter.com/6dooqeLPnh

— Awful Announcing (@awfulannouncing) October 12, 2023



Chelsea Janes, national baseball correspondent for the Washington Post, weighed in

1) He yelled the phrase when cameras and recorders were rolling. I have audio. Had he done it at a slightly different moment, a camera sending an interview live to the truck might have caught it. Would you be eviscerating that network? Or would you say,

— Chelsea Janes (@chelsea_janes) October 12, 2023



&

Shouldn’t say that with cameras around?

2) Suggesting you shouldn’t report something said in the presence of MORE THAN A DOZEN reporters because it “wasn’t meant to get out?” is suggesting reporters should be protecting players from themselves. That’s not our job. It’s theirs.

— Chelsea Janes (@chelsea_janes) October 12, 2023



And finally, the BBWAA:

Statement from the BBWAA pic.twitter.com/X6ThJPk6CK

— BBWAA (@officialBBWAA) October 13, 2023

I’m going to get fined for being right, again (gyac), Friday, 13 October 2023 14:48 (seven months ago) link

In that post above, I still never really explain why I give a pass to Bouton but not to the reporter. I realize that it comes down to personal bias, that--fairly or unfairly--I value what Bouton does (writing a book) more than what the reporter does (writing an article, game report, whatever). Ball Four changed sports books, and I think it was extremely important in the evolution of how we view athletes; quoting Arcia in the clubhouse led to a memorable postseason moment (not the HR itself but the staredown) but has no intrinsic value otherwise. So it's basically a biased value judgement in the end.

I was also thinking that Ball Four is so great, it divides people in unexpected ways. In one respect, Bouton and Bill James were trying to do exactly the same thing: demystify a lot of silly things people believed about baseball and baseball players. Yet the most memorable comment I've ever encountered from James on Ball Four is "Jim Bouton is a loudmouth." I'm surprised he either can't see or won't acknowledge his affinities with Bouton.

I've never seen the TV series, but I'm guessing that it's something close to what the book would have been if Bouton had held back and not crossed that line of privacy: Wacky Expansion Team. Still entertaining, but changing nothing. Similar to how I avoided The Bad News Bears for 20 years because I assumed it would amount to Wacky Little League Team and little more. Instead, it's a surprisingly harrowing argument that adults should never be allowed to coach kids baseball.

clemenza, Friday, 13 October 2023 17:22 (seven months ago) link

Posnanski is 1000% on the reporter's side.

https://open.substack.com/pub/joeposnanski/p/friday-rewind-the-hunger-games?r=1jtu0&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

clemenza, Friday, 13 October 2023 17:27 (seven months ago) link

three weeks pass...

Spent the morning in the library basement helping move boxes for the upcoming town book sale. The guy who organizes the moving always lets me take a few baseball books. Found a hardcover of Bouton's I'm Glad You Didn't Take It Personally--library stamp but in excellent shape, what I assume is a first edition. Also Harold Rosenthal's The 10 Best Years of Baseball: An Informal History of the Fifties. He's got the wrong decade, but looks interesting.

clemenza, Tuesday, 7 November 2023 16:07 (six months ago) link

Unlikely I'll ever read it, but found a copy of this at the town book sale (hard to find a good image online):

https://i.postimg.cc/VkxpDQVN/leflore.jpg

Published in '78, right after his .325/212-hit season with the Tigers. He followed that with two more good ones, then stole 97 bases for the Expos in 1980--three more and he would have been only the third guy to steal 100 after 1900. (Henderson stole 100 the same year, Vince Coleman a few years later.) LeFlore was out of the game after the '82 season; his Wikipedia entry says it was soon revealed that he was five years older than he claimed. Received MVP votes in four of his nine seasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_LeFlore

clemenza, Sunday, 12 November 2023 15:44 (six months ago) link

I would love to read a book about the most successful ex-con in baseball history! I didn't know that they made a movie based on his life too.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Sunday, 12 November 2023 17:12 (six months ago) link

He's still alive. Not being too far from Detroit, I thought to check today to see if it was autographed. No luck. (He and Fidrych both played in the '76 All-Star Game.)

clemenza, Sunday, 12 November 2023 18:07 (six months ago) link

Read Bouton's I'm Glad You Didn't Take It Personally for the first time in years. Very worthy follow-up. Still a few things that are dated, of course--two songs they sing on the bus, in particular--but a great chronicle of all the fallout from Ball Four and the end of Bouton's career (and beginning of his TV career). One chapter is letters received about Ball Four, including one from Ruth Ryan: "...both Nolan and I enjoyed it very much." Another chapter, "Sanctity of the Clubhouse," addresses issue raised above. There's a part involving Doug Radar that I want to quote but can't find at the moment.

clemenza, Thursday, 23 November 2023 17:18 (five months ago) link

Bouton's working for ABC at this point:

I had a great time with the Astros. They made me feel most welcome, and there was a marvelously nutty interview with Doug Rader, the third baseman, who suggested Little Leaguers should actually live one a diet of bases, pitchers mounds and bubble-gm cards.

Bubble-gum cards?

"Oh, yes. They have lots of information on them about hitting and pitching."

clemenza, Thursday, 23 November 2023 18:05 (five months ago) link

three weeks pass...

Anybody read Evan Drellich's Winning Changes Everything? A friend writes that it's

_a look at the Luhnow-era Astros that offers: a) a case-study reckoning with two decades of league-wide Moneyball cloning; and b) a sobering portrait of Alex Cora in his Houston days (a drunkard and a lout, according to Drellich)._


I’m reading this right now! Pretty good read so far.

Pitcher usage was a common fight between them in 2012, Luhnow’s first season of play with the team. Late in games, managers have to deploy their relievers in a way that positions the team to win while also protecting those pitchers’ health. Sometimes relievers throw on multiple days in a row, increasing fatigue and the chance of injury. Even if a reliever does not enter a game, just warming up in the bullpen can be taxing. Luhnow wanted Mills to use his better relievers more frequently.

“What if his arm isn’t feeling well?” Mills said. “We can’t do that, because we’re going to kill this guy.” “What do you mean we’re going to kill this guy?” Luhnow said. “He can’t throw four or five days in a row,” Mills said. “Well, he can, if he only throws an inning here, two-thirds of an inning here, or whatever,” Luhnow said. “No, he can’t. Because he has to warm up,” Mills shot back. “We just can’t walk up there and get this guy to come in the game. He has to warm up; his arm has to get hot.”


💀

mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Sunday, 17 December 2023 12:33 (four months ago) link

never heard of this!

The Celebrant, by Eric Rolfe Greenberg

I have two copies of Thomas Klise’s wild and wildly out-of-print 1974 novel, The Last Western, and my friend Maria gave me both of them. It’s a strange, shaggy, ambitious book—one of those classic Catholic Social Apocalypse/Baseball novels, whose protagonist both pitches in the Major Leagues and becomes the pope, among other things; we talked about it at The Awl back in 2012. As it is not the social baseball novel that I’m writing about here, I will move on from it beyond encouraging you to seek it out. The reason I bring it up has more to do with Maria’s practice of buying a copy of the book whenever and wherever she finds it, and then giving that to someone she thinks would get something out of it. This seemed strange to me at the time, and I told her as much, but it makes more sense to me now. If you are going to love a book that’s hard to find, and want other people to love it, too, that is what you will have to do. And so, at least until Defector Classic Editions comes into existence and publishes a deluxe new edition of the book, I am committing to doing it when and wherever I find a copy of Eric Rolfe Greenberg’s 1983 novel The Celebrant, the book I most enjoyed in 2023.

The Celebrant is easier to find than The Last Western, if nothing else; first editions are expensive and seem decently rare, but you can get copies of the most-recent printing, from 1993, from the University of Nebraska press and on Amazon. And I imagine it would still work if you got it that way, but there was something about how I found it that felt auspicious. Some friends had recommended it years earlier, and critics had praised the book widely when it came out decades before that, but the fact that it had fallen so far out of the conversation—it’s the only book that Greenberg ever published; he doesn’t even have a Wikipedia page—made it seem all the more significant when it finally turned up on a shelf at The Strand. If you can get a Lost Classic on Amazon, it feels less lost, somehow, and maybe even like less of a classic for being on there alongside all the self-published anti-vaccine claptrap and knockoff HDMI cables. The thrill of discovering it, right in its place and where it had never been in any of my previous visits, felt more like what I’d imagined.

However lost it was, The Celebrant is indeed a damn classic. The Last Western concerns the end of everything—a whole world collapsing under the weight of human cynicism, malaise, jealousy, greed, unbelief, and all the other 1970s American Classics. The Celebrant, which is set around the turn of the 20th century and tells the story of a Jewish immigrant family and their complicated personal and professional relationships with baseball in general, the New York Giants more specifically, and the iconic Giants ace Christy Mathewson in particular, is more a novel of beginnings than endings. It is a story about how baseball has made people into Americans, which it always has, and how fraught and complicated and implicating a thing that is. There is a lot of baseball in it, and Greenberg writes it elegantly and expertly; the turn-of-the-century details are carefully wrought; there’s nothing showy about the language, but the steakhouses and train carriages and ballparks are described in evocative and graceful ways. It feels real enough—crowded and smoky and half-drunk, or starched and fancified and lonely—that Greenberg’s detours into more debauched and dreamlike corners are made all the more disorienting.

It is a commanding performance, all told, and Greenberg’s stuff is all the more effective for how well he controls it, and how meticulous he is about setting up what needs to be set up, and how comfortably he changes speeds. As good as the baseball writing is, and as colorful as the color is, what has stayed with me about The Celebrant is how deftly Greenberg navigates the concentric and contradictory layers of reverence and awe and unreality and devotion that make fandom so simultaneously deranging and enriching a lived experience. The Kapinski family comes closer to these icons—to Mathewson, especially, and to the Giants’ irascible manager John McGraw—than they are strictly comfortable with, and ultimately perhaps closer than they can strictly handle. You’re not supposed to do business with your gods.

If what follows is tragic, it is mostly so in the same accumulative way that stories told over sufficiently long periods of time tend to be. Everyone is pushed and pulled by the forces that always push and pull people, and also by the abiding and All-American subsuming of the small by the large, and the past by the future. It’s a smaller book than The Last Western in a bunch of ways, if just as worthy of rediscovery. Both have to do with belief, but if The Last Western is about the crisis of a world without it, The Celebrant is about the strange and shifting shapes that belief can take, and the lonesome places our devotions can take us. - David Roth

mookieproof, Wednesday, 27 December 2023 20:27 (four months ago) link

four weeks pass...

Posnanski's Why We Love Baseball has won the 2023 Casey Award for best baseball book of the year. It's his third Casey. How do I know all this? Joe, the world's greatest self-promoter--i.e., the world's most exhausting self-promoter--has a column about it today.

Winners and nominees (launched in 1983):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_Award

clemenza, Thursday, 25 January 2024 14:43 (three months ago) link

three weeks pass...

Bought this at a flea market--$10, still shrink-wrapped; a bit too much in that setting--only because I didn't know it existed until today:

https://i.postimg.cc/fR9xWtBY/kirk.jpg

Came out in '97, two years after Gibson retired and nine years after his famous HR. Oversized hardcover, almost a coffee-table book--surprised he got someone to publish it (he pretty clearly wasn't headed for the HOF). Also surprised the cover photo is him as a Tiger, and not what you'd assume would be on the cover.

clemenza, Sunday, 18 February 2024 23:13 (two months ago) link

Fine player, though--one of three or four Tigers who probably would have been a better pick for MVP than Willie Hernandez.

clemenza, Sunday, 18 February 2024 23:16 (two months ago) link

What's he got to say about his famous homer?

H.P, Monday, 19 February 2024 13:02 (two months ago) link

one month passes...

Big-deal acquisition today: Martin Levin, who used to edit Innings, a short-lived Toronto monthly I wrote for, gave me his copy of the 1977 Baseball Abstract, the first one.

https://sabrweb.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/1977-Bill-James-Abstract.jpg

I don't know how many copies James self-published--my guess is 100. (The '78 edition, also self-published, sold 250 according to Wikipedia.) I've been trying for 20 years to get a copy, and I've never so much as seen one for sale online, whether eBay or Abe or anywhere. So I don't know what it's worth, but I'm guessing quite a bit.

(Martin also told me that he's donated some stuff to Cooperstown, including the half-dozen or so issues of Innings. Somewhere in the deepest catacombs of the library there, yes--I'm in the HOF!)

clemenza, Saturday, 23 March 2024 20:19 (one month ago) link

wau

mookieproof, Saturday, 23 March 2024 20:23 (one month ago) link

I feel it's like owning a copy of the Magna Carta. I'm somewhat biased.

clemenza, Saturday, 23 March 2024 20:28 (one month ago) link

Damn that's incredible clemenza.

Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 23 March 2024 21:55 (one month ago) link

I missed a line in that Wikipedia entry: the first edition sold 75 copies (one of whom was presumably Martin)...I posted about this in Facebook. Half of me was thinking "You shouldn't be attracting attention with something this rare." The other half was laughing at that half: "Haven't you learned yet--no one cares about this stuff. Criminals are busy stealing cars--they're not combing Facebook looking for Baseball Abstracts."

clemenza, Saturday, 23 March 2024 23:05 (one month ago) link

So cool!

brimstead, Sunday, 24 March 2024 15:16 (one month ago) link

Amazing clem, congratulations on your acquisition (and your unofficial HOF induction)!

NoTimeBeforeTime, Sunday, 24 March 2024 15:38 (one month ago) link

On the induction, thanks. On the other...Jesus, this is embarrassing...it's a reprint. When Martin gave me the book, I took a quick look and put it right in a bag. Looked exactly like the '78/'79/'80 editions I already have: card-stock cover, a little faded, hand-stapled. I was posting yesterday from a coffee shop on my way home; found the image above online.

So how did I figure out that it's a reprint when I got home? It required a lot of detective work:

https://i.postimg.cc/jSN0FyPy/reprint.jpg

(Thought about posting this in the absent-minded thread--yes, I actually managed not to notice that. If I had bought it online, I'd be looking at the expensive-stupidity thread, created by me for me.)

I don't even have the heart to revisit the Facebook post, where I tagged Martin. Still excited to have it, but obviously not quite where I was yesterday.

clemenza, Sunday, 24 March 2024 17:16 (one month ago) link

Let me now tell you all about the Picasso I bought on eBay last month.

clemenza, Sunday, 24 March 2024 17:19 (one month ago) link

Sorry to go on about this...As I suspected, the reprints are pretty rare in and of themselves:

https://picclick.com/Vintage-Bill-James-Baseball-Abstract-Set-1977-1978-262998858206.html

If that's accurate, this person sold the first five for $2,500, with the '77 and '78 editions reprints; I've got the '77 reprint and originals for '78-'81 (which Mike Saunders--Creem, Angry Samoans--gave to me years ago), so presumably the value would be comparable.

The story of the '77 reprint is pretty interesting according to that link: "reprints are just as rare as they were only produced (allegedly by Bill James' wife) upon written request." I don't know if that's how Martin got his or if he bought it second-hand.

clemenza, Monday, 25 March 2024 13:35 (one month ago) link

two weeks pass...

Ordered a copy of this today:

https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/andy-mccullough/the-last-of-his-kind/9780306832598/?lens=hachette-books

Honestly, it was mostly to support the one book store in town--I try to order something every month or two. I don't think it's something I would have bought otherwise, although at least it's a biography rather than an autobiography.

clemenza, Thursday, 11 April 2024 04:30 (one month ago) link

one month passes...

And if no one ended up ever crossing that line, maybe we'd still think of Mickey Mantle as this 100% heroic figure who used to hang around the park for hours after the game signing autographs for kids.

i just learned about what mickey said happened to him under the right field bleachers by the bullpen during the third or fourth inning. so not feelin too sorry for the all american boy - would have happened regardless of the book!

, Saturday, 11 May 2024 13:39 (three days ago) link

From Ball Four? Only because I can search the book on the Internet Archive, I found this:

On the other hand there were all those times when he'd push little kids aside when they wanted his autograph, and the times when he was snotty to reporters, just about making them crawl and beg for a minute of his time. I've seen him close a bus window on kids trying to get his autograph. And I hated that.

Maybe there's the one specific incident you cite, but I think it was more of a general comment about Mantle.

(As "on the other hand" suggests, he also had good things to say about Mantle.)

clemenza, Saturday, 11 May 2024 14:22 (three days ago) link

I think he means the story about him getting a blowjob.

Roman Anthony gets on his horse (gyac), Saturday, 11 May 2024 14:25 (three days ago) link

That's in the book? I've either forgotten...or somehow managed to miss that altogether.

clemenza, Saturday, 11 May 2024 14:27 (three days ago) link

i'm sayin that mantle shouldn't have been too mad at bouton for blowing him up in the book. because mantle did enough to blow himself up! https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mantle-piece/

, Saturday, 11 May 2024 14:29 (three days ago) link

Ah, got it. I even tried searching "blow job"--lots of "job" results, a few "blow"s, but never together.

https://i.postimg.cc/bNL5D6bH/bouton.jpg

clemenza, Saturday, 11 May 2024 14:37 (three days ago) link


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