This is a thread for ILXors ON THE WAGON (and for the Wagon Curious)

I used to drink one or two beers with dinner once a week or so, but when I was diagnosed with diabetes the doctor told me to stop because it might interfere with the pills he was putting me on. So I stopped. And I haven't had a drink now in about 20 years (was diagnosed in mid-2003). And my wife was never a drinker at all. But just the other night, she mentioned to me over dinner that although she hated the taste of beer when she was younger, she knows that there are all kinds of beers now that taste all sorts of ways and maybe we should look into buying a six-pack of beer and drinking it. So now I'm thinking that might happen sometime soon, especially if — as has been predicted — we get snow before Halloween. (We might get snow on Wednesday. And even if we don't, the temperature's gonna drop to between 15 and 30 degrees the whole second half of this week.)

I really don't enjoy being drunk, but I really do enjoy the 3 drinks mini-buzz. As a result, 3 drinks a day is pretty much average right now and I'm starting to think maybe this isn't the best thing for my life but also thinking it's nice and I'm not seeing any physical downsides. I'm going to have 10 days off next week (forced by circumstance), and I think if I notice any change I'll make some changes for 2024.

I'll have three drinks a day: a cocktail and two glasses of wine between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. give or take. On weekends I'll go out for lunch and have a couple glasses of wine. I'll drink more if I can hang out with friends or go to dinner. At a friend's I'll take a couple hits of mellow weed. If I don't go out I'll smoke a cigarette after dinner.

So far I haven't seen a downside. On weeknights I'm in bed by 9:30-10 p.m. with no effort. I wake before sunrise. I walk five miles six days a week. I still read a fuckton and my writing/publishing continues.

I write these things, I hope, not to brag but as a conversation starter: is there an age at which one should be more abstemious? The way I see it, if I feel fine and booze doesn't keep me from getting what I want done, I see no downside -- yet.

It's the "yet" that weighs on my mind. Replace the wine with beer and it's the same story. I find it's the "when" I drink (i.e. before bed) that only ever leads to (minor) problems. That 5-8pm space, a few hours before bed, is this magical time where booze seems to do no harm to me

that makes sense, like for me I'll go out to watch an NFL game at noon and have a few beers (plus touchdown shots, which unfortunately are not much of a concern for the Green Bay Packers right now), but when I do that by 6-7 PM I'll just start feeling sluggish and absent minded. if you start 2-4 hours before bed though I think you just sleep through that

The way I see it, if I feel fine and booze doesn't keep me from getting what I want done, I see no downside -- yet.

well I'm no doctor but my view is you're allowed two vices. or one if it's bad. not like crystal meth bad though. unfortunately things like sugar, junk food, and not exercising count. so if you stay active and eat well you can probably drink somewhat regularly and smoke weed and still be in good shape. in fact I'm not really convinced that weed is particularly bad at all, especially if you're just doing edibles. it kind of comes down to how much of your life you wanna live in a pleasant little haze. unfortunately for me I can't stop because my best ILX posts come while high. this is not one of them.

I'm okay on the sugar and cholesterol levels, eat red meat just once a week, hummus + tabbouleh my usual weekday lunch. Hence my attraction to the vice.

you get deducted 1 vice point for every major stability deficit you have ime.

do you go to church?

I'll usually have a drink at night, sometimes two, rarely more than that unless I am with friends. But I must admit, that Huberman podcast, referenced above and I think referenced by me before, gave me pause. It's a really good, thorough analysis of alcohol that both affirms its utter toxicity but also made me consider my own hypocrisy. That is, drinking, like smoking, is 100% bad for you. And yet, I've never smoked, because it is bad for you, but I do drink, even though it is bad for me. My rationale is that I don't drink to excess, and never have, but that's just what it is, rationalization. Probably or at least in part because I didn't really drink at all until my late '20s, maybe early '30s, and don't really detect any difference in my health or disposition now that I do, except that it didn't used to play any part in my life, and now it does. As does coffee, sugar, etc. I've often wondered what it would be like if I cut any of those things out of my life, even though I have no real reason to beyond curiosity. If the addition of any of things didn't make a dramatic difference, would their subtraction? Dunno! I have a friend that cut out caffeine and swears by it, but I'd ask myself, what exactly would I hope to achieve by following his lead?

The dangers of alcohol haven't seeped into the culture of medicine. When I respond "Once a day" to the question about smoking, my doctor says, "You shouldn't do it at all." When she asks how much I drink and I say, "Two or three a day" she doesn't respond.

To me, one of the most interesting experiences has been how little I miss being impaired. Like, I don't miss it at all. I realized how much I was using alcohol to self-medicate and to create a barrier between myself and the world, and between myself and the people in my life. I can't say it's always enjoyable not to have that curtain to be able to drop, but I'm not willing to trade that for not missing out on significant parts of my life.

is there an age at which one should be more abstemious?

I have a couple of scientist friends who work on ETOH -- and they both drink! they're not crusaders, like anybody else they weigh pleasure against cause -- but if you ask them about their research they'll say "oh yeah the more we learn about alcohol the more we know it's just really super bad for you full stop." the purported wine benefits are all gettable elsewhere.

From that Huberman podcast:

I know a number of people are going to ask, perhaps are screaming, "Is drinking good for me in any way?" For instance, many people have probably heard that resveratrol is good for people and that red wine is rich in resveratrol. I hate to break it to you but the reality is that if indeed resveratrol is good for us, and there's some debate about this - some people say strongly yes, some people say no, other people say maybe - the amount of red wine that one would have to drink in order to
get enough resveratrol in order for it to be health promoting is so outrageously high that it would surely induce other negative effects that would offset the positive effects of resveratrol. So I wish I could tell you different.

Again, I'm not here to be the bearer of bad news, but the statement I just made was confirmed by Dr. David Sinclair when he was a guest on this podcast. It's confirmed by other researchers who work on resveratrol and related pathways. I wish I could tell you that red wine is good for your health, and indeed it might be through some other mechanisms. So, for instance, there have been studies of low to moderate red wine consumption. This would be anywhere from one to four glasses per week. And I don't mean enormous glasses, I mean six-ounce glasses of red wine. And in those cases, some of the stress reduction that can be induced by consumption of red wine, maybe some of the other micronutrients and components within red wines, in particular red wines that come from particular grapes - and this gets really nuanced and, frankly, is not well worked out in the peer-reviewed literature or certainly not clinical trials, at least not that I'm aware of; tell me if you're aware of a great clinical trial on this - well, there may be some positive effects of that very low level of consumption. I'm not trying to take away anybody's red wine. I'm not trying to take away anybody's anything. I would be remiss, however, if I didn't tell you that resveratrol as the argument for drinking, and drinking red wine in particular, is just not a good one. It's just not supported by the peer-reviewed research.

The dangers of alcohol haven't seeped into the culture of medicine. When I respond "Once a day" to the question about smoking, my doctor says, "You shouldn't do it at all." When she asks how much I drink and I say, "Two or three a day" she doesn't respond.

― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, October 24, 2023 9:14 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I've had a different experience. When I saw a gastroenterologist a few years ago and said that I'd averaged 10-15 drinks per week for the past few years, he became alarmed and had me tested for liver damage. It seemed like an overreaction to me (I did not have liver damage), though I did end up cutting back to about a drink a day after that. But I probably would've done that eventually, anyway, since my wife stopped drinking altogether around the same time.

!!

(I should add that she stopped drinking for unrelated reasons.)

enjoying perspectives itt

instead of leaning into microspecifics of moderate red wine being good for you (i have never heard of reservatrol and i doubt many ppl have tbh) i would probably rather go the other way and look at the macro lifestyle practices of the person who has a glass of red wine a day

i bet theyre dreadfully well behaved in a host of ways tbf

mainly from the thread (my drinking is a very moderate pleasure as a rule these days) im more determined than ever to tackle my mindless sugar consumption which is almost certainly taking a heavy toll

I could try to give up sugar, but I suspect it is harder than I think to remove it from my diet.

I will not give up caffeine. That is the last hill on which I am willing to die.

ah even to drop the blatant sugar bombs that are part of my daily diet, i could live with my eating habits as far as my actual meals go i think

It's remarkable how much the pandemic upended much of this for me. Every so often I'll walk to the little brewery in town and have a beer or I'll take a glass of wine if offered one at an event, but really that's it. No interest on anything harder (or spending $20+ on one out there). Same with sugar and caffeine - when I was just working on my own at home, I kinda just forgot about it and then lost it as a habit. I mean I'll spend hours on a pho broth, but have zero interest in a cookie.

i have never heard of reservatrol and i doubt many ppl have tbh

I think resveratrol (spelled wrong in the transcript I posted!) is basically just the stuff in red wine that people claim is good for you, with apparent antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties.

To clarify, are you no sugar people talking about processed sugars, or are you cutting out fruit etc. as well? I’m not the worst processed sugar fiend, but I live on fruit and can’t imagine cutting it out

Again, I'm not here to be the bearer of bad news, but the statement I just made was confirmed by Dr. David Sinclair when he was a guest on this podcast.

just so you know though Sinclair is a quack who hawks reservatrol in a proprietary formulation to the wealthy; I have been in a room with a bunch of his prospective clients and they were absolutely lapping up his pitch. grain of salt on any of his claims.

Jclc, is this the same Sinclair as Sinclair Method? (That is, take naltrexone when you drink so that drinking is un-fun and boring, and therefore you stop drinking because it isn't enjoyable anymore?)

I think so, I hadn't known of him before. but I have heard him make deeply unscientific claims to a credulous audience.

Huh. Yeah, I don't know who he is, but Google says he's a tenured professor of genetics at Harvard?

Heh, yeah, he totally seems like a snake oil guy, lol

Though tbf, the context of that reference is that that compound in wine is not effective in normal doses, which seems like a reasonable claim, even if he probably subsequently volunteers his special batch as the adequately dosed solution.

To clarify, are you no sugar people talking about processed sugars, or are you cutting out fruit etc. as well?

I've been having a dry October. Well, only since the 7th to be precise. And I'm also making an exception tomorrow for a work event where there will be drinks. I was having on average a glass of wine or two per night, which wasn't enough for me to feel hungover or anything, but I did find it to contribute to heartburn and bloating (sometimes in combination with too much food, to be fair) so it was more for that reason I was looking to take a break.

im trying to cut down on snake oil tbf

"To clarify, are you no sugar people talking about processed sugars, or are you cutting out fruit etc. as well? I’m not the worst processed sugar fiend, but I live on fruit and can’t imagine cutting it out"

i eat fruit! it is really really really sweet to me now. i did start out drinking more sugar-free drinks to kind of wean myself from drinks with sugar in them - that's why i started a sugar-free drink thread - but if you give up processed sugar they will taste insanely sweet. doesn't matter if its monkfruit/stevia/etc. i pretty much just drink spindrift bubbly water now and occasionally i will add a little fruit juice to it. i don't know. everyone will be different. i have had sugar a little. on special occasions. sometimes when i'm buying bread at the bakery i'll get a kinda-good-for-you-fancy-oat-cookie or something? but rarely. if i do have something i make sure its actually homemade or something baked. but its crazy how much less i eat in general since i stopped with junk sugar. processed stuff is obviously designed to make you keep eating so if you eat a lot of it you tend to eat a lot of everything. the junk trained me to. and since MOST processed food has a ton of sugar in it i don't eat that stuff and that takes away that binge eating jones. its kinda cool! bodies and brains are pretty cool. i'm just happier eating simple stuff now. i have been addicted to concord grapes since they are in stores now.
i just have to get off the wheat/chip/carb train. again, when i stopped with sugar i let myself go nuts with chips and bread. i started craving butter because its sweet. but that died down. i just know that i feel WAY better. the pandemic and after - oof - i just got so unhealthy. during the pandemic i was hiding food in my bedroom! from my kids! sweet stuff. chips. i got up to 260 pounds and i had never been that big. it was harder for me to walk. my feet hurt. i didn't want to move. i knew if i didn't do something it was just going to get worse. i stopped drinking last summer and that winter is when i just stuffed myself. makes sense. i hadn't been drinking a ton by then but i was obviously replacing something. it made me depressed. deciding to exercise made a big difference too. i got a stationary bike october of 2022. i still use it. i had NEVER exercised regularly before. unless lifting lots of heavy record crates counts. when i lived in philly i walked a ton. but that was years ago.
even little things can make a big difference. i have WAY more energy now.
it has to be said. i can eat my weight in junk food and sugar. i got that from my dad too. he STILL - even though we are cooking for him and getting him better stuff since he moved in with us - can eat a TON of sugar and candy. it's insane. he's 88! but i think it's the only thing he can taste.

i will put a bit of local maple sugar on my oatmeal sometimes. or local honey. they make them both right up the road. but not all the time. just a taste. even that feels healthier.

it is just really insane how much sugar is in so much food. i mean, i knew that. but yeesh. even, like, plain yogurts or things you don't even think of as being really sugary.

instead of leaning into microspecifics of moderate red wine being good for you (i have never heard of reservatrol and i doubt many ppl have tbh) i would probably rather go the other way and look at the macro lifestyle practices of the person who has a glass of red wine a day

i bet theyre dreadfully well behaved in a host of ways tbf

this is exactly correct, and this issue plagues all nutritional epidemiological research. people who drink in moderation are wealthier, exercise more, etc etc — and controlling for these other factors is more challenging than you’d think

there was an article someone posted on ILX a while ago arguing that alcohol had a big social benefit that was very important to mental health which in turn had some physical health benefits. I think there's some truth to that. like for one my wife and I would not be together if not for Jose Cuervo. that's just a fact. which means my kids wouldn't exist. also I think a motivation for a lot of people to stay looking fit is to look good at parties and social gatherings which sometimes involve a lot of alcohol. I mean if not for drinking a lot of people just wouldn't get together as often as they do

Life would be a lot more boring without alcohol, for me at least - but limiting consumption to a reasonable amount is a constant battle...

This year so far I have not gotten wasted drunk, I will drink maybe once or twice a month and always in the company of others, I have had occasions where I managed to only have one drink (this is major for me), and I have turned down free alcohol.

Answering the age-old question, turn down for what?

it is just really insane how much sugar is in so much food.

I volunteer at a food pantry, and one day my task was to sort donated food into different categories, according to nutritional needs/guidelines. It was shocking how many at first glance healthy looking things were slotted into the third/worst category because of all the added sugars, or the spiked sodium.

“I realized how much I was using alcohol to self-medicate and to create a barrier between myself and the world, and between myself and the people in my life.”

I think (for me) it was mostly social. (That first pandemic year was another story, because it happened at home alone and was more tied to a general free floating doom/depression.)

These days I almost never drink. It’s a once every month or so thing. When I was in Seattle recently for a week I had … maybe 5-7 over the course of that week, which was a lot for me in a concentrated period of time. It’s just not enjoyable for its own sake - drunkenness, that is - and hasn’t been for decades now. A mild buzz with friends has an appeal, but I’ve noticed that in social situations where no one is drinking I’m fine with not drinking. Water or coffee or a lemonade will do nicely.

I'd like the Irish and britishes POV in here, especially the middle-agers. In Dublin a few months ago I noticed men and women who'd drop into the pub, drink a pint while reading the paper, pay, and leave. Americans...don't do that? We have such a mystique around spirits.

One factor is that beer over there is afaict often a lot lower in alcohol than beer here.

Right, but I refer to the ritual of drinking. The three cultures sure love drinking, but because of age limits we're all LET'S GET HAMMERED as if one pint/glass of wine/cocktail isn't enough or couldn't be incorporated into the routine.

we need to take it to XXXXXxxxxtreme!!!! #cravethewave

I am all about harm reduction lately. It's been really effective to just buy 1 or 2 those 19.2 oz cans instead of a 6-pack. Then I'm out and there isn't any more beer and I'm actually perfectly buzzed, to reason to have more. Folks have come over lately and I haven't had any in the fridge, which was previously unheard of.

― out-of-print LaserDisc edition (sleeve), Monday, October 23, 2023 3:41 PM (two days ago)

i'm a fan of these tallboys too for this reason, although there seems to be something of an arms race happening here - every can at the bodega is a double-blasted IPA clocking in at close to 10% ABV, i think there's one at like 13-14%. i think of them as new 40s.

Lots of ppl binge drink like crazy here. Don't let those casual drop-in pints fool you. IME attitudes towards alcohol aren't any healthier here than in the US. At all.

Ha, my sister lives in a British college town/city, and walking around in the morning you have to carefully avoid all the piles of vomit and chips, not to mention the amount of public urination I've encountered there; "LET'S GET HAMMERED" might just be a universal motto of youth. A pint over the paper might be the more mature/middle aged manifestation, like a glass of wine with lunch.

yeah i think we have -maybe- a pub culture that supports going for one ir two, an after work or lunch pint, but that's an additional option alongside ten pint sessions not replacing them by and large ime

if i count as a middle ager, yeah the days of weekly group sessions drop away with kids and moving out of town and all that.

ive had a couple of pints with the new neighbours over the past few years and theres no question of a pissup, its out at five home at eight four drinks max- im enjoying that

a lunch pint is a great civility btw I'll stand over that one