The Pogues: Classic or Dud

like the case for a lot of acts, i first became aware of the pogues via an SNL appearance and i was blown away. shane was absolutely unintelligible but completely mesmerizing.

― omar little, Thursday, 30 November 2023 17:29 (two hours ago) link

I remember watching this when it was live and my mother, who often had trouble sleeping, would sometimes come downstairs & watch tv with me, was proper horrified by Shane's teeth "my god his teeth!"

UMS & I saw him with the Popes in the late 90s and it was hugely chaotic, drunken affair, I think they had played Chicago the night before and rumor was Shane was still in the greater Cook County area at showtime, he did eventually appear one or two songs into the show but he even though he was upright and singing he was clearly not exactly...er awake. Then about halfway through the song he eyes suddenly opened, he came awake in the middle of singing and the whole crowd roared and his face, he looked like he was amazed to be alive, there was so much joy in his eyes at that moment. RIP

from what it sounds to me Elvis did what you should do with a great live band, mostly get out of the way

yep -- most producers don't know this wisdom though!

from what it sounds to me Elvis did what you should do with a great live band, mostly get out of the way marry the bass player

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 30 November 2023 19:54 (two minutes ago) link

I'm sure Cait said in an interview they never actually married?

i didn’t really get into the Pogues until i was at Uni

the only song i really knew before i knew them was the covers like Dirty Old Town & Band Played Waltzing Matilda — mostly because my mum was super into Irish folk music & i occasionally went with her to some of the local regional celtic music festivals

but at Uni we had this bush dance night where they had a live band playing old australian folk songs & sorta square dance things - it was corny & fun & we all got rolling drunk. after the final dances & everyone was leaving but the band were still set up & playing, my friend who was a rabid pogues song asked the band if they knew any pogues songs, they were up for it i guess because they played for maybe 5 or 10 of us and ripped through a bunch of Pogues
we had so much fun & i fell in love w the songs immediately
my friend gave me a cassette copy of Rum Sodomy & The Lash the next day and it stayed in my car stereo for years afterwards, excellent for long boring drives back & forth between my home town & uni

truly some of the best soul-stirring music for me personally

mcgowans version of the band played waltzing matilda still makes me cry every goddamn time

"now come you gentleman soldier, won't you marry me??"

xp Passage from EC's autobiography:

Cait O'Riordan and I were not married in any church or by any legal authority, but our own were once sincere and certainly bound us to each other.

...

She played in The Pogues, led by a great songwriter who was utterly contemptuous of me, although I admired him nonetheless. I produced the only good and truthful-sounding record they ever made...

Should be "our vows" not "our own"

Red Roses sounds about as good tbh, like more fun, but fair play EC that Lillywhite sound on If I should fall… has its moments but gets in the way

i told my story re being behind shane at a mark stewart gig in the other thread re shane.

there is now photographic evidence ..

no idea if this will work.

https://scontent.fbrs4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/405226775_10227254469802156_1410091209896366032_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=c42490&_nc_ohc=YREGHa5irpQAX8qtn6W&_nc_ht=scontent.fbrs4-2.fna&oh=00_AfB5oUyXjWhuX9OYUUTBfGmwG0q0zSHpYxekyHnH_4Cuag&oe=656D5617

mcgowans version of the band played waltzing matilda still makes me cry every goddamn time

― werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, November 30, 2023 8:17 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I read this post and thought 'yes, brilliant version that I appreciate but I am hard hearted now, no, no tears for me' but it just came on and ofc I'm broken.

I generally admire Mr Mac manus but it is a dick move to say that it was the ONLY worthwhile record the Pogues made.

It was a large band that made a lot of music under a lot of circumstances - live and in studios. I love that record but it wasn't the only good thing they did.

Yeah, EC was just taking the piss. I mean, I like all of their albums up through and including Peace and Love, and most of Hell's Ditch as well.

I saw the Pogues here, with Shane, back in maybe 2007? He and they were great.

I love all the albums through If I Should Fall From Grace With God, and there's a good handful of classics on the two other Shane/Pogues albums (not all of them by Shane -- hello "Lorelei"). Jem Finer wrote "Misty Morning Albert Bridge," but it's one of my favorite Shane vocals.

I saw them in Atlanta in 2009. They were . . . amazing. Shane was surprisingly coherent. He made it through "Bottle of Smoke" with nary a slip.

God damn it. This is going to hurt for a while.

area at showtime, he did eventually appear one or two songs into the show but he even though he was upright and singing he was clearly not exactly...er awake. Then about halfway through the song he eyes suddenly opened, he came awake in the middle of singing and the whole crowd roared and his face, he looked like he was amazed to be alive, there was so much joy in his eyes at that moment. RIP

This is extremely similar to what happened when I saw him at one of the Guinness Fleadhs around 1998.

Is Elvis C's production of Rum... his best? I think so.

Poguetry In Motion is my favorite, "A Rainy Night in Soho" in particular.

In a way that backs up Elvis's work as a producer, I always preferred the oboe overdub on "A Rainy Night in Soho" - Shane wanted the flugelhorn and the argument may have been the last straw that got them to look for another producer the next time around. (I like the idea of a flugelhorn, but on this record it sounded a little too obtrusive in the mix to me.)

Anyway, quite the gut punch this morning even if it was clear that Shane was in poor health. The opening track of Rum Sodomy & the Lash feels like a fitting epitaph to me, especially the final verse and chorus.

I think a 90 minute cassette of the best Pogues songs would be my favorite album of all time.

As a Pogues neophyte, are even their albums generally regarded as uneven?

nah. diverse, sure, eclectic. but not uneven.

I'm mostly familiar with Rum Sodomy & the Lash and If I Should Fall from Grace with God, and they're both great and both consistent, rock solid albums. They weave in covers and instrumental passages, which feel like the sort of thing some people may unfairly criticize (I see that reaction towards other albums that include those things) but I wouldn't - they're all wonderful.

I love the variety of those albums. Hell's Ditch is especially good for that too.

the pogues knew exactly what they wanted to do and they accomplished it vv well, up to and including hell's ditch. i've never heard the albums w/o shane, i assume they're about as essential as post-lou reed doug yule-era VU.

I used to LOVE dancing to that song ^^ in my room and was always afraid my jumping would make the plaster fall into the room below me.

I love this story.

Yup the covers and versions on the first three albums are a brilliant and (I think?) not obvious collection, also as I get drunker I keep wanting to drop in the thread and just shout 'AND WE DID NOT CATCH THAT WHALE'

Also also I hadn't listened to the medley on If I should fall… in years. That Galway Races is a blast

the weird moments on rum sodomy ("gentleman soldier," "wild cats of kilkenny") are some of my favorites

And the basic strangeness of having Cait sing "I'm a Man You Don't Meet Every Day"

Right! it's the one that the men would always sing at parties when I was a kid and hearing Cait singing it was definitely a 'well... fuck… this is confusing but good' moment for 13yo me.

diverse, sure, eclectic. but not uneven.

the pogues knew exactly what they wanted to do and they accomplished it vv well, up to and including hell's ditch.

Both otm. I listened to Rum Sodomy and If I Should Fall ... this afternoon and was enjoying exactly their overstuffed-ness, the random instrumentals and occasional other lead vocals (Spider Stacy on "Jesse James," Cait O'Riordan's lovely turn), the nods toward big-band swing, spaghetti Westerns, fake Middle Eastern flourishes — they were a punky anti-purist band who seemed happy to indulge just about any whim. Some of that may have been necessitated by having a somewhat unpredictable/unreliable leader, granted, forcing others to step up. But on the albums at least it feels like a big friendly party. A cèilidh!

And then they'd do something like this, for no obvious reason at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-JdFM41RUg

^ that song rules. one of my faves

I saw them on the Fall from Grace tour and I'd love to see today what that crowd looked like then. The band was great but it was a party that ultimately went bad -- had to head to the balcony b/c it got too heated on the floor. Have no recollection of Shane from that show, but saw him and the Popes ~12 years later and it was memorably grim. Unintelligible, slurring, wasn't even trying...maybe couldn't? Short set.

Absolutely love Rum Sodomy and the Lash. Happily rediscovered today that I still know it front to back. Man, "Old Main Drag" is something else. Didn't quite catch the allusion there to five quid hand-jobs when I was 15 years old, but they blew my mind with all the stuff everyone's already mentioned here. I also kinda understand this quote from the Times obit -- “the greatest disaster ever to hit Irish music.” Not cuz I agree, but there was certainly no reason to listen to trad Irish after hearing the Pogues. Or at least any of the music that was making its way here. Who was possibly going to be half as exciting as the Pogues??

For all the behind the scenes drama and issues with shane, they were so prolific, over 7 years they released five albums plus the Poguetry in motion EP.

Yup and there’s fair bit of non-album stuff - Haunted, Yeahx5, Rake at the Gates of Hell, trad versions and of course Jack’s Heroes.

Nice obit in the Irish Times from his biographer: https://www.irishtimes.com/obituaries/2023/11/30/shane-macgowan-obituary-rank-outsider-who-became-one-of-irelands-most-feted-sons/

I wonder how much Shane loved that his biographer's name is Balls.

xp OMMMGGGGG the remix of YYYYYY where he says "I love your brrrrreeeeeeasts" like 5000x used to make my friends and I lol so much

Also i just remembered that "Lorca's Novena" coincided with my AP Spanish class in hs and I felt so freaking literate knowing who Lorca was. I hope Shane is at peace -- he brought me and so many people a lot of joy.

xxpost: Richard Balls, even

Hope his parents were brave enough to give him the middle name Nick or Norman.

short interview with him from when the book came out: https://www.edp24.co.uk/lifestyle/20641855.richard-balls-interviewing-shane-macgowan-real-eye-opener/

Yup and there’s fair bit of non-album stuff - Haunted, Yeahx5, Rake at the Gates of Hell, trad versions and of course Jack’s Heroes.

The first thing of theirs I ever bought was the "Pair of Brown Eyes" 12-inch with "Whiskey You're the Devil" and "Muirshin Durkin" on the flip side.

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2023/12/sleep-easy-shane

This is very good.

yeah that was a+

I was all :rolleyes: at Fairytale of New York going to be played everywhere again, but you know what, it's still a great great song and let's get it to n°1 for Christmas.

otm

xposts I was struck by the line "Over the course of seven albums, The Pogues left an extraordinary imprint on British popular music."

Have they? Are there bands one would describe as influenced by the Pogues? I feel that the "imprint" of a group like the Clash remains greater, and probably broadly includes whatever influence the Pogues might have conveyed - the politics, the eclecticism, the attitude - but maybe I'm wrong. Sometimes I feel like the (at least sonically demonstrable) impact/imprint of the Pogues on American acts might be greater, but I'm happy to be corrected.

Kaleb Horton:

https://www.gq.com/story/shane-macgowan-will-outlive-all-of-us

let's ask billy bragg

xp

Sorry to hear of the demise, after a long illness, of one of the greatest songwriters of my generation, Shane MacGowan. The Pogues reinvigorated folk music in the early 80s and his songs put the focus onto lyric writing, opening doors for the likes of myself and others.

— Billy Bragg (@billybragg) November 30, 2023

fucking beautiful, Kaleb always nails it

xpost That's a great example. Obviously I don't want to/can't contradict Billy, but is there anything he got from the Pogues that he did not get from the Clash (or other punk protest music)? I hear a lot of the Clash but I'm not hearing much of the Pogues in his stuff, though of course there is the Kirsty connection. Maybe it's the idea of the Pogues, sort of like the idea of Dylan. Countless bands are influenced by Dylan, whether they sound like him or not.

Anyway, what I'm half getting at is that the Pogues were pretty special (not unlike the Specials!) so their impact maybe contains multitudes. I'm curious to hear responses from those other than the usual suspects.