The Pogues: Classic or Dud

For all the behind the scenes drama and issues with shane, they were so prolific, over 7 years they released five albums plus the Poguetry in motion EP.

Yup and there’s fair bit of non-album stuff - Haunted, Yeahx5, Rake at the Gates of Hell, trad versions and of course Jack’s Heroes.

Nice obit in the Irish Times from his biographer: https://www.irishtimes.com/obituaries/2023/11/30/shane-macgowan-obituary-rank-outsider-who-became-one-of-irelands-most-feted-sons/

I wonder how much Shane loved that his biographer's name is Balls.

xp OMMMGGGGG the remix of YYYYYY where he says "I love your brrrrreeeeeeasts" like 5000x used to make my friends and I lol so much

Also i just remembered that "Lorca's Novena" coincided with my AP Spanish class in hs and I felt so freaking literate knowing who Lorca was. I hope Shane is at peace -- he brought me and so many people a lot of joy.

xxpost: Richard Balls, even

Hope his parents were brave enough to give him the middle name Nick or Norman.

short interview with him from when the book came out: https://www.edp24.co.uk/lifestyle/20641855.richard-balls-interviewing-shane-macgowan-real-eye-opener/

Yup and there’s fair bit of non-album stuff - Haunted, Yeahx5, Rake at the Gates of Hell, trad versions and of course Jack’s Heroes.

The first thing of theirs I ever bought was the "Pair of Brown Eyes" 12-inch with "Whiskey You're the Devil" and "Muirshin Durkin" on the flip side.

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2023/12/sleep-easy-shane

This is very good.

yeah that was a+

I was all :rolleyes: at Fairytale of New York going to be played everywhere again, but you know what, it's still a great great song and let's get it to n°1 for Christmas.

otm

xposts I was struck by the line "Over the course of seven albums, The Pogues left an extraordinary imprint on British popular music."

Have they? Are there bands one would describe as influenced by the Pogues? I feel that the "imprint" of a group like the Clash remains greater, and probably broadly includes whatever influence the Pogues might have conveyed - the politics, the eclecticism, the attitude - but maybe I'm wrong. Sometimes I feel like the (at least sonically demonstrable) impact/imprint of the Pogues on American acts might be greater, but I'm happy to be corrected.

Kaleb Horton:

https://www.gq.com/story/shane-macgowan-will-outlive-all-of-us

let's ask billy bragg

xp

Sorry to hear of the demise, after a long illness, of one of the greatest songwriters of my generation, Shane MacGowan. The Pogues reinvigorated folk music in the early 80s and his songs put the focus onto lyric writing, opening doors for the likes of myself and others.

— Billy Bragg (@billybragg) November 30, 2023

fucking beautiful, Kaleb always nails it

xpost That's a great example. Obviously I don't want to/can't contradict Billy, but is there anything he got from the Pogues that he did not get from the Clash (or other punk protest music)? I hear a lot of the Clash but I'm not hearing much of the Pogues in his stuff, though of course there is the Kirsty connection. Maybe it's the idea of the Pogues, sort of like the idea of Dylan. Countless bands are influenced by Dylan, whether they sound like him or not.

Anyway, what I'm half getting at is that the Pogues were pretty special (not unlike the Specials!) so their impact maybe contains multitudes. I'm curious to hear responses from those other than the usual suspects.

I never found any band I liked as much as the Pogues bc the songwriting was just not as good or interesting. It’s like most of my favorite bands — people take bits and pieces but no one has the total alchemy. Billy Bragg probably the closest bc he was political and also vulnerably romantic. The Clash didn’t have that but Pogues did. At least in my mind.

I should say I never found any Irish folk rock I liked as much as Pogues and lord knows I tried.

The music of the pogues possesses this deep sadness that is so frequently coupled with this fervent resistance and strength in the face of the sadness and I've never really heard any music that does that as well

I gotta say, y'all amaze me. This place amazes me. I wasn't expecting so many un-ironic posts in praise of MacGowan. I like the Pogues without loving them -- they're before my time and my college station never played them, so I had to discoer Rum... on my own -- but I've played the first three albums a lot thanks to this thread.

i’ve been thinking about MacGowan’s abilities as a singer of covers, an interpreter i guess idk

his version of Nick Cave’s “Lucy”, for example he is able to adjust the levels of the original, where Nick is singing to the rafters & really pushing the drama; where MacGowan makes it so stripped down & plainspoken, that then makes the last lines “i’ll love her forever” etc so devastating

also their duet of What a Wonderful World he stays so sweetly true to the original that his delivery feels so much more sincere, it kind of upstages Cave after his big intro

like the perception of his delivery in general is overshadowed by his permanent state of drunkenness, but he has such a great talent for delivering the emotional essence of the lyrics with some quite subtle modulations imo

lowkey genius

plus the very rare ability to take a traditional ditty and make it vital.

how many versions of "dirty old town" are there? well there's only one that matters

the band helps sure, but macgowan just completely inhabits the narrators of his songs

i'm kinda with josh i think you see a lot in america - dropkick murphys, the tossers, flogging molly (i'm not suggesting that these bands are remotely on the same planet as the pogues quality wise)

One song I was returning to this week a lot is one he didn't even write,"Thousands are Sailing"...sad and defiant and a raucous party, all at once. It's a beautiful one, made twice so bc of Shane.

That song is so good. Along with (per Tipsy) "Lorelei." Band had a deep bench of songwriters.

Yeah, “Thousands” is probably my favourite Pogues track, and altho the writing and playing is all top-tier, the way it hits me comes down to the way Shane gets behind the lyrics

I've been thinking about something I'd never really noticed - we call The Pogues prolific (~83-90) upthread but actually there are what maybe 30-odd actual MacGowan originals from those years that range from good to actually obliteratingly great, and it's some testament that off that songwriters with wide deep catalogues (eg Springsteen) just line up to say that he's an all-timer.

Re: Shane and the Pogues as interpreters, do we really need any other version of "The Irish Rover"?

(tbf, the best one is probably the one they did with the Dubliners)

Also - I watched the Julien Temple documentary tonight and whatever - great footage, too much mythologising, good interviews - but it's mystifying when you hit 'first song I wrote for The Pogues' and watch 'Streams of Whiskey' and it's just just… how? The gift.

didn't know Dylan was a massive fan

on interpretation, imo yes always more Irish Rovers/Kittys/Poor Paddys/Galway Races/Waxies Dargles, as many as possible, keep that shit moving, have fun along the way, that's one of the lessons

Time to hear this again:

Rum Sodomy and the Lash poll

RIP

xxpost jimbeaux otm
their version of Irish Rover is definitive for me for sure! heard sooooo many renditions in my years tagging along w mum at irish music festival & this one is as rollicking as it gets <3

The bands that have an obvious Pogues influence take the wrong bits from The Pogues. The records are great because they somehow transcend the rowdiest and most maudlin parts that reel you in.

i love their Rocky Road To Dublin too

Had not seen/heard this, lovely of course. Can’t believe we lost both of them this year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocjxFunwQNE

Also I’ve been glad to see so many people talk about him as a singer and interpreter in addition to his songwriting. He was a GREAT singer, at least when he wasn’t too slurry to get through. And even sometimes then. His phrasing, sure, the gravelly gravity of his voice, but the key is something more like heart, feeling, emotional resonance. He can hit the full range within one verse of a song, from love to grief to regret to knowing humor. There was nothing artless about it, he knew what notes he was aiming for musically and emotionally, and he could be as brash or subtle as the moment needed.

Looks like that Carol Clerk "Kiss My Arse" book is ridiculously out of print and otherwise MIA.

ugh i know i looked that up too! can’t even get it through inter-library loan :( :(

tipsy otmfm

Also I’ve been glad to see so many people talk about him as a singer and interpreter in addition to his songwriting. He was a GREAT singer, at least when he wasn’t too slurry to get through.

Okay I may have said something about "Navigator" but then I thought about "A Pair of Brown Eyes."

I am not ready to listen to either one right now but they are out there if you want them.

I was so sad all day but “What A Wonderful World” was what truly set me bawling last night, absolute waterworks

This is a cool video, the band recording "Johnny Come Lately" with Steve Earle in 1988. Shane's clearly been sidelined and/or sidelined himself. Steve Lillywhite seems enthusiastic about the idea of people other than Shane stepping up. And this is the heart of Earle's cocaine years and seems like it. But it's still pretty awesome to see them all put a song together. It's a good tune, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK_TZY7pihU

one of my alltime favorite Steve Earle songs <3 <3

Had not seen/heard this, lovely of course. Can’t believe we lost both of them this year.

It's really f-ing sad that only a year ago, the two of them and Terry Hall were still with us. I knew they all had their struggles, physical and psychological, but it's still unbelievable that we'd lose all three so soon.