I guess that self-defined position as "thinking person's music" answers the OP's question and mine. Indie isn't necessarily seen as the center of a musical universe, but rather sees itself as existing in the center OF a musical universe. By the act of regarding (expressing an interest in) "other genres", it organizes them in a manner that makes them seem somehow subordinate - like cultural accessories.
I don't think this is wrong or bad or "oh noes, cultural imperialism", but it's very different from the often isolationist/protectionist stance of other genres.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:36 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah that sounded a bit dickish, eh? Wasn't trying to judge, just didn't word it well enough. I don't hate you, indie, I promise.
― adamj, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:38 (fifteen years ago) link
...that link between intellect and musical taste. In indie's case it's a defining characteristic.-- adamj
-- adamj
Hell, I think presumed intellectual/aesthetic superiority is maybe THE defining characteristic. It's the only unifying point I can see between, say, Big Black, MF Doom and Belle & Sebastian.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:44 (fifteen years ago) link
Presumed by an audience who places a premium on intelligence, I mean.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:45 (fifteen years ago) link
I think maybe part of the difference between indie and other genres is that (from what I've witnessed) indie people tend to pat themselves on the back for incorporating elements from other genres, whereas in other genres, bands either assimilate other influences quietly or get lambasted for selling out.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:48 (fifteen years ago) link
(To wit, the critical love Vampire Weekend get for incorporating African rhythms)
And by "selling out" I mean that, at least in metal, which is the only genre I can really speak confidently about, the fans seem to be very wary of both acts that change direction and new genre hybrids, i.e., rap metal or metalcore, which probably fits in with what you were saying earlier about the isolationist/protectionist stances.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:52 (fifteen years ago) link
indie people tend to pat themselves on the back for incorporating elements from other genres
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:55 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah. I think indie people (including me), tend to pat themselves on the back for being aware - or worse, "correctly aware" - of as many things as possible.
like liberals?
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:57 (fifteen years ago) link
It's funny too, 'cuz indie's desire to be friends with ALL GENRE makes it (unsurprisingly) something of a pariah. Nobody wants indie coming around with its Plastic Littles and Early Mans and fucking up what used to be a perfectly nice place we got here.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:57 (fifteen years ago) link
Well, as shown above, "indie" is such a broad, encompassing genre, whereas fans/purveyors of rap, metal, electronica etc., have (in a very general sense, of course) more concrete genre aesthetics.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:58 (fifteen years ago) link
Alfred: Also OTM - I think there's probably a lot of crossover between the "buys mostly indie stuff" and the "always votes democrat" demographics. Then again, I think you aren't supposed to mention that.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:59 (fifteen years ago) link
I don't know if you can really glean much from that, most of the metalheads I know are definitely on the left side of the coin. Of course, I live in Los Angeles, so that probably throws off the demographics...
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 03:00 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah, I don't want to go to far down the class/race/politics wormholes. Not cuz i think they don't apply, but just cuz nothing good ever comes of it. Really, really surprised, by the way, that this has been allowed to progress as far as it has...
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 03:02 (fifteen years ago) link
"far" being a supremely relative term
What, a civil discussion? You can find those occasionally here.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 03:04 (fifteen years ago) link
About "indie rock"? Yeah, I suppose it's possible...
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 05:20 (fifteen years ago) link
concrete genre aesthetics
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 05:23 (fifteen years ago) link
Surely not in hip-hop. Hip-hop is more about taking elements from other genres and using them out of context in a way that fits with the hip-hop style.
― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 08:48 (fifteen years ago) link
True, but they tend not to promote the sources in the same way.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 09:24 (fifteen years ago) link
A certain element of tokenism toward other genres is pretty much inherent in indie. Fonarow has some good thoughts on this in her book on "The Aesthetics and Rituals of British Indie Music"
― marc h., Wednesday, 21 May 2008 14:16 (fifteen years ago) link
It should also be noted that, by its very unassuming nature, indie rock has a much lower "learning curve" then other genres-- it's a lot easier for a lot of people to get into the Shins than, say, Emperor, or even Metallica.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:20 (fifteen years ago) link
Jeff, what exactly do you mean by "learning curve"? A big part of what determines what people "get into" is how what they're considering getting into their way of living, and how they want to live. So is what you mean: for college-educated folks, indie rock fits into their current and anticipated way of life better than metal does?
But limiting this to college-educated folks just makes this about class aspiration again.
When I was in HS way more people were into Metallica than indie rock. So I'm not sure about what you're saying.
― Euler, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:23 (fifteen years ago) link
What's funny is that five or six years ago, Pitchfork was lambasted by ILM precisely for sticking only to indie: when they started reviewing hip-hop singles, this was largely seen as a Good Thing.
― jaymc, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:25 (fifteen years ago) link
Breihan changed the game.
― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:27 (fifteen years ago) link
-- Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, May 21, 2008 4:20 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link
if it's easier for people to get into metallica than the shins, why is metallica a zillion times more popular?
emperor maybe, but how hard was it to get into "enter sandman"?
― M@tt He1ges0n, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:27 (fifteen years ago) link
i think more ppl would find no age offputting than metallica because of the production values.
― M@tt He1ges0n, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:28 (fifteen years ago) link
it is a good thing, but otoh they didn't review 'New Amerykah' xposts
― blueski, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:30 (fifteen years ago) link
i don't really see tokenism as a bad thing for the most part.
for me, it was a way that actually made me get into other stuff..you start out as some college kid buying like one miles davis CD, now i buy way more jazz than anything that's actually considered "indie rock"
― M@tt He1ges0n, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:30 (fifteen years ago) link
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:30 (fifteen years ago) link
Oops, let me clarify -- I just meant that, for indie rock fans (not sure where Euler got the class aspiration thing from, I wasn't talking about that at all), it's easier to see indie rock as a launching point to other genres because a lot of it (not all) is more easily accessible, in the same way that I jumped from AC/DC to Megadeth to In Flames.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:49 (fifteen years ago) link
Wait, so you're saying that for indie rock fans, indie rock is more easily accessible?
― Euler, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:51 (fifteen years ago) link
For mainstream rock fans, the more mainstream forms of indie rock are more accessible than, say, extreme metal. True, but kinda self-evident.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:53 (fifteen years ago) link
No, I'm just trying to say that the more accessible the music is, the easier it is to see as a centerpiece, in the same way that I look at classic rock as the centerpiece of my listening world, not black metal.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 16:59 (fifteen years ago) link
indie rock does get a lot more artful and daring than the shins though, who admittedly i like quite a bit
― Charlie Howard, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 17:02 (fifteen years ago) link
and the reason I got into class-based stuff is that what's accessible is gonna depend on who you're talking to. If we're talking accessible to the vast majority of Americans, then let's use record sales as a measure and compare, say, the Shins to Metallica.
― Euler, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 17:02 (fifteen years ago) link
Why is it so important to indie fans that everyone be so broadminded?
This isn't something that is exclusive to indie fans. Fans of classic rock or classic pop (that is, non hip-hop-influenced 60s/70s/80s-style pop) also tend to have this need to be broadminded. In fact, fans of all "white" genres other than metal/hard rock (and to some extent dance, if dance can be counted as "white")
― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 21:48 (fifteen years ago) link
That's not a bad point, Geir, though it does threaten to turn this into a "race thing".
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 21:53 (fifteen years ago) link
there's no answer to the question "what type of music do you listen to?" that won't make you come off like kind of a choad, if you're giving a shorthand answer that is. (possible exception: "everything", but even there...)
― omar little, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:03 (fifteen years ago) link
"Metal" is a good answer to that question, 'cuz the "no, fuck you" is sorta built in.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:10 (fifteen years ago) link
The "What type of music do you listen to" question is rather easy to respond to for fans of hip-hop, metal or electronica. Or to the kind of braindead people who respond "I like all kinds of music" and then usually means mainstream hits only. Indie fans will never answer "indie".
Personally, I think "Do you have 10 minutes?" is the best answer ;)
― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:18 (fifteen years ago) link
"Indie fans will never answer "indie"."
You've obviously never met my girlfriend's sister, who (along with her boyfriend) I use as my default indie strawman. And when I was in high school, I definitely used to say that I listened mostly to indie rock, even though that both was and wasn't true (indie rock and industrial, and that industrial was almost all on indie labels and was a form of rock, but wasn't indie rock, know'm'sayin'?).
As for the question, I usually go with either whatever I've been listening to most recently (today, Notorious Byrds) or a made-up answer like "Fartcore."
Regarding the amoeba-like grasp of "indie," I remember feeling confused one day when my neighbors, all recent immigrants from various SE Asian countries, were playing reggaeton loudly. They'd only ever played, like, Canto-pop (and Vietnamese versions of the same), and I was stuck between thinking "How odd—it's all in Spanish," and castigating myself for racist assumptions.
― I eat cannibals, Thursday, 22 May 2008 17:59 (fifteen years ago) link
Indie fans will never answer "indie".
obviously RONG
― stephen, Thursday, 22 May 2008 18:45 (fifteen years ago) link
indie = punks got into the 60s (but you know, before all the trippy stuff)
― jeremy waters, Thursday, 22 May 2008 21:26 (fifteen years ago) link