Are white people who say "I don't like hip hop" yet listen to it when white people make it really saying "i don't like black people"?

xpost they were EXAMPLES. but yes I can give you an example: Will Smith!

Tim, everything you've said has been OTM but I have to question this part:

Obv. the exact same thing happens wrt to black hip hop stations and media organs gravitating towards black artists.

Does the black media really practice the same prejudices in reverse? AFAIK, the Beasties in their prime, Vanilla Ice, and Eminem were equally embraced by the hip-hop audience and media. And in cases where there hasn't been a crossover there is usually a pretty obvious reason sonically. Do any Beck or Prefuse 73 tracks really fit into the narrow framework of mainstream hip-hop radio or club playlists?

Personally, I wish it was more "self-derogatory".

*raises*

Not quite. I think Tim's point, which I agree with, is that rock audiences tend to only like hip hop that is endorsed and approved by mainstream rock critics, general MTV rotation, college radio, etc. So it's not down to personal taste in the sense that people are hearing everything and making aesthetic choices on a case by case basis. The consensus trickles down from the personal taste of a small group of critics, editors, or programming directors. It's not so farfetched to think this might involve some degree of institutionalized racism.

why did white people find it easy to appreciate, say, Public Enemy but not so much Kool G Rap?

Public Enemy fit a narrative that the rockcentric gatekeepers bought into: political content, a revolutionary image, innovative production, etc.

xpost they were EXAMPLES. but yes I can give you an example: Will Smith!

What about Will Smith? I thought "Parents Just Don't Understand" and "Summertime" were hits with black and white audiences but maybe not.

I can't speak for the station and its listeners, but I will say that when I compare and contrast the emotional ambiance of "My Name Is" and (for instance) Dre's "Nuthin' But a G Thang," one of them reminded me of the Stones, Dylan, the Velvets, the Stooges, Rocket From the Tombs, the Electric Eels, the Sex Pistols, the Contortions, and Guns N' Roses, whereas the other did not remind me of any of those bands.

That said, I know of a long-time Stooges fan (me) who greatly prefers most hip-hop to most rock that's been released since, oh, Hexenduction Hour, and who tends to go to almost any music other than "rock" for what he once got from rock. But I think my point here is that people listen to what speaks to them.

The consensus trickles down from the personal taste of a small group of critics, editors, or programming directors. It's not so farfetched to think this might involve some degree of institutionalized racism.

(putting aside that i don't really buy this "gatekeeper" theory)
but wait, i thought it didn't have anything to do with racism?

Public Enemy fit a narrative that the rockcentric gatekeepers bought into: political content, a revolutionary image, innovative production, etc.

you could just as easily argue that PE fit into and contained more readily recognizable aspects of white aesthetics and values.

LL Kool J. (Started on the same label, too, with a similar tendency towards rock sounds.)

But you're right, there aren't a lot of them.

-- oops (don'temailmenicelad...), June 28th, 2005.

Really? I still remember the whole Professor Griff fiasco, among others...I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be interested in which aesthetics and values you're referencing.

Oh sorry, I misunderstood. Good call.

Thanks for making me burst out laughing & nearly choke on my dinner.

I think Tim's point, which I agree with, is that rock audiences tend to only like hip hop that is endorsed and approved by mainstream rock critics, general MTV rotation, college radio, etc.

Doesn't MTV play a fair amount of hip hop and rap these days? I don't watch much of it (no TV :( ) but I feel like when I do flip through the channels at my friend's house, I see a lot more rap videos being shown on it than there were even 5 or 6 years ago.

Maybe think of the Stones et al. as reminding me of Eminem, and work backwards (the Stones also remind me of bits of Public Enemy and Kool Moe Dee and Spoonie Gee).

Anyway, there's a double effect going on: if you're a republican voter and a republican politician tells you to care about something, you're more likely to at least think twice before disagreeing. On the other hand, if you're a republican politician and a republican voter tells you to care about something, you're also more likely to at least think twice before disagreeing.

So there are two levels of identification: specific case-by-case values/positions (which we might consider to be roughly analogous to styles and values in music) and the sense of identification with a communitarian discourse around values, which allows you to say "I'm a republican/democrat/indie fan/rap fan" etc. Each mutually reinforce but can also manipulate and mutate the other.

Obviously not all pro-choice republicans are going to become pro-lifers just because they are republican. In the same way not all people who like/dislike hip hop are going to do so purely on the basis of the dictates of the musical discourse in which they primairly move. In both cases there are multiple factors to be taken into account, as well as space to make a personal decision based on what can be very complex personal beliefs and ethical/aesthetic values etc. At the same time, if I was a republican who was undecided on this issue, wouldn't I be likely to give strong weight to the arguments of my pro-life republican friends, who seem to be in accordance with many of my other values?

Thing is, I kinda doubt Rocket From the Tombs, the Electric Eels, or the Contortions ever got played much on Detroit rock stations! (Or even the Sex Pistols, when I was living there.) (And I had no idea that "My Name Is" did either, until now.) (But I DO understand how Eminem partakes in a punk aesthetic -- like, wishing violence upon his Mom and stuff - that most rappers never would.)

I agree with the first part but not with the second. I think you're giving both politicians and critics too much credit for listening to their "constituents." At least I hope most music writers don't bend and capitulate every time they get nasty LTEs.

Parents they just don't understand.

Tim, I half agree with you, but I want you to take in what Oops and I are saying. People respond to content. That is, if a Republican gatekeeper said, "You should listen to and appreciate Eminem because he's got a song where he rapes his mother," this would not impress his constituents, whereas if a punk-rock gatekeeper said the same thing, it would impress his constituents.

(Hey, cool, I've got constituents.)

Do you care for me
Like once I cared for you
Honey come and be my enemy
So I can love you too
Sick boy sick boy fading out
Learning to be cruel
Baby with me in the heat
Turn me loose on you

Eminem lyric from "My Name Is":

This guy at White Castle asked me for my autograph
So I signed it, "Dear Dave, thanks for the support, ASSHOLE!"

I trust you're out there shaking hands and kissing babies.

rock audiences tend to only like hip hop that is endorsed and approved by mainstream rock critics, general MTV rotation, college radio, etc.

And one of the reasons for this is that rock audiences tend to be similar (culturally, socially, emotionally) to the critics et al.; they've self-selected themselves as people who pay attention to critics, for this reason.

Structural musical taste, like politics, doesn't work by getting influential people to say that white is black (ie. "Eminem espouses conservative moral values when he pretends to rape his mother") but by changing what it is that people consider to be important in politics/music. Your Eminem/Punk example is a good one: the punk rock gatekeeper, if he were to elaborate, would say: "ignore the content relating to rapping and samples and guntalk, focus on the content relating to mother-raping!" - ie. the "content" of a particular piece of music will depend on what you seek to get out of it.

The Eminem example is a good one: Elton John doesn't congratulate Eminem for hating homosexuals, but he does congratulate him for "bucking the trend" and "saying things no-one else will" etc. ie for Elton John the "content" is read through a matrix of values that emphasises artistic free speech and rebellion over respect for others' sexual orientation.

Likewise frequently the "content" of current street hip hop for a lot of reformed rap-haters starts off being the interesting sonics and only gradually extends to the rapper's flow and persona.

That might be true for people who, well, read rock criticism and seek out reviews and are like most ILMers. But that arguement doesn't hold water for 'casual' (for lack of my brain coming up with a better word) white music fans who listen to Eminem and Beastie Boys but not rap by black artists.

Interesting example. Why does Eminem get the benefit of the doubt but not other instances of homophobia, misogyny, and gunslinging misanthropy?

No I wouldn't. I tell people to listen to the musical relationships and think of them as incipient social relations, actually.

Of course, I might play the authenticity card and tell the reader that if he doesn't like Spoonie Gee, Kool Moe Dee, Public Enemy, and Eminem, then he doesn't like real punk, but only the stuff that dresses up like punk.

(I can be really obnoxious when it serves my purposes.)

This puts it better but I'm not sure if it means something different to what I'm saying - ie. saying "here are three ways that Eminem is like punk" also says "here is how to listen to Eminem as if he were punk" ie. "here is what to listen for in Eminem".

It actually does at that!

So you should like the Pistols because they're sweet like the Crystals (if you overlook all the noise and caterwauling and destruction, that is).

Walter, I actually think that rock and hip-hop have a lot in common emotionally, and I think the trouble rock fans have with hip-hop is that the latter has moved beyond them formally. (That is, some rock and some hip-hop have a lot in common, though by now those two genres encompass several universes each.) I don't see why a Beasties fan wouldn't like Cypress Hill (who had a minor hit last year with a song based on a Clash sample), but I can see how the Beasties are easier on his ears.

Yes I agree with this!! So then I'm not sure where we disagree. What am I saying that seems odd?

See, I believe it was the very last major case of "white guy=rock, black guy=rap, even if all sonic evidence points to the contrary" industry thinking. The very thinking that Eminem's debut, in effect, ended. Rock radio never played his singles again after that. But for those first several weeks, they did.

*still doubt that these so-called gatekeepers have as much impact on people's tastes as walter and tim do