Why claim indie as the centerpiece?

It's funny too, 'cuz indie's desire to be friends with ALL GENRE makes it (unsurprisingly) something of a pariah. Nobody wants indie coming around with its Plastic Littles and Early Mans and fucking up what used to be a perfectly nice place we got here.

Well, as shown above, "indie" is such a broad, encompassing genre, whereas fans/purveyors of rap, metal, electronica etc., have (in a very general sense, of course) more concrete genre aesthetics.

Alfred: Also OTM - I think there's probably a lot of crossover between the "buys mostly indie stuff" and the "always votes democrat" demographics. Then again, I think you aren't supposed to mention that.

I don't know if you can really glean much from that, most of the metalheads I know are definitely on the left side of the coin. Of course, I live in Los Angeles, so that probably throws off the demographics...

Yeah, I don't want to go to far down the class/race/politics wormholes. Not cuz i think they don't apply, but just cuz nothing good ever comes of it. Really, really surprised, by the way, that this has been allowed to progress as far as it has...

"far" being a supremely relative term

What, a civil discussion? You can find those occasionally here.

About "indie rock"? Yeah, I suppose it's possible...

concrete genre aesthetics

I think maybe part of the difference between indie and other genres is that (from what I've witnessed) indie people tend to pat themselves on the back for incorporating elements from other genres, whereas in other genres, bands either assimilate other influences quietly or get lambasted for selling out.

Surely not in hip-hop. Hip-hop is more about taking elements from other genres and using them out of context in a way that fits with the hip-hop style.

True, but they tend not to promote the sources in the same way.

A certain element of tokenism toward other genres is pretty much inherent in indie. Fonarow has some good thoughts on this in her book on "The Aesthetics and Rituals of British Indie Music"

It should also be noted that, by its very unassuming nature, indie rock has a much lower "learning curve" then other genres-- it's a lot easier for a lot of people to get into the Shins than, say, Emperor, or even Metallica.

Jeff, what exactly do you mean by "learning curve"? A big part of what determines what people "get into" is how what they're considering getting into their way of living, and how they want to live. So is what you mean: for college-educated folks, indie rock fits into their current and anticipated way of life better than metal does?

But limiting this to college-educated folks just makes this about class aspiration again.

When I was in HS way more people were into Metallica than indie rock. So I'm not sure about what you're saying.

What's funny is that five or six years ago, Pitchfork was lambasted by ILM precisely for sticking only to indie: when they started reviewing hip-hop singles, this was largely seen as a Good Thing.

Breihan changed the game.

It should also be noted that, by its very unassuming nature, indie rock has a much lower "learning curve" then other genres-- it's a lot easier for a lot of people to get into the Shins than, say, Emperor, or even Metallica.

-- Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, May 21, 2008 4:20 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

if it's easier for people to get into metallica than the shins, why is metallica a zillion times more popular?

emperor maybe, but how hard was it to get into "enter sandman"?

i think more ppl would find no age offputting than metallica because of the production values.

it is a good thing, but otoh they didn't review 'New Amerykah' xposts

i don't really see tokenism as a bad thing for the most part.

for me, it was a way that actually made me get into other stuff..you start out as some college kid buying like one miles davis CD, now i buy way more jazz than anything that's actually considered "indie rock"

What's funny is that five or six years ago, Pitchfork was lambasted by ILM precisely for sticking only to indie: when they started reviewing hip-hop singles, this was largely seen as a Good Thing.

Oops, let me clarify -- I just meant that, for indie rock fans (not sure where Euler got the class aspiration thing from, I wasn't talking about that at all), it's easier to see indie rock as a launching point to other genres because a lot of it (not all) is more easily accessible, in the same way that I jumped from AC/DC to Megadeth to In Flames.

Wait, so you're saying that for indie rock fans, indie rock is more easily accessible?

For mainstream rock fans, the more mainstream forms of indie rock are more accessible than, say, extreme metal. True, but kinda self-evident.

No, I'm just trying to say that the more accessible the music is, the easier it is to see as a centerpiece, in the same way that I look at classic rock as the centerpiece of my listening world, not black metal.

indie rock does get a lot more artful and daring than the shins though, who admittedly i like quite a bit

and the reason I got into class-based stuff is that what's accessible is gonna depend on who you're talking to. If we're talking accessible to the vast majority of Americans, then let's use record sales as a measure and compare, say, the Shins to Metallica.

Why is it so important to indie fans that everyone be so broadminded?

This isn't something that is exclusive to indie fans. Fans of classic rock or classic pop (that is, non hip-hop-influenced 60s/70s/80s-style pop) also tend to have this need to be broadminded. In fact, fans of all "white" genres other than metal/hard rock (and to some extent dance, if dance can be counted as "white")

That's not a bad point, Geir, though it does threaten to turn this into a "race thing".

there's no answer to the question "what type of music do you listen to?" that won't make you come off like kind of a choad, if you're giving a shorthand answer that is. (possible exception: "everything", but even there...)

"Metal" is a good answer to that question, 'cuz the "no, fuck you" is sorta built in.

The "What type of music do you listen to" question is rather easy to respond to for fans of hip-hop, metal or electronica. Or to the kind of braindead people who respond "I like all kinds of music" and then usually means mainstream hits only. Indie fans will never answer "indie".

Personally, I think "Do you have 10 minutes?" is the best answer ;)

"Indie fans will never answer "indie"."

You've obviously never met my girlfriend's sister, who (along with her boyfriend) I use as my default indie strawman. And when I was in high school, I definitely used to say that I listened mostly to indie rock, even though that both was and wasn't true (indie rock and industrial, and that industrial was almost all on indie labels and was a form of rock, but wasn't indie rock, know'm'sayin'?).

As for the question, I usually go with either whatever I've been listening to most recently (today, Notorious Byrds) or a made-up answer like "Fartcore."

Regarding the amoeba-like grasp of "indie," I remember feeling confused one day when my neighbors, all recent immigrants from various SE Asian countries, were playing reggaeton loudly. They'd only ever played, like, Canto-pop (and Vietnamese versions of the same), and I was stuck between thinking "How odd—it's all in Spanish," and castigating myself for racist assumptions.

Indie fans will never answer "indie".

obviously RONG

indie = punks got into the 60s (but you know, before all the trippy stuff)