A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

I think Camus did that.

http://myweb.wvnet.edu/~jelkins/lawyerslit/images/camus_fall.jpg

We just wrote chapter one, bnw.

yeah, i remember the "minority" multitudes at husker du & replacement shows back in the day

I'd have been more comfortable with a reactionary but worthy-of-discussion-in-a-mainstream-liberal-publication essay on the twentysomething music fans who want to talk to you about Of Montreal's album over Ciara's -- who'll privilege the former over the latter for reasons they can't even articulate.

-- Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, October 15, 2007 11:31 PM (Yesterday)

Another potentially interesting thing to think about is Our Band Could Be Your Life, one take on 80s (American) underground rock. These bands were discussed:

* Black Flag
* The Minutemen
* Mission of Burma
* Minor Threat
* Hüsker Dü
* The Replacements
* Sonic Youth
* Butthole Surfers
* Big Black
* Dinosaur Jr.
* Fugazi
* Mudhoney
* Beat Happening

Was there more black music influence then? These bands were much less popular, and generally more abrasive, but I'm not sure I see a whole lot more black music influence. (I know--the Minutemen were funky, and Fugazi too sometimes I guess.)

-Minutemen loved funk and jazz for sure.
-Fugazi were all huge dub heads.
-Black Flag swung REALLY hard towards the end (see "Swinging Man" for proof) and Ginn was a huge jazz nerd.
-Minor Threat loved go-go but I don't know how much of it made it into their music. But punk rock of that era in general can get traced back to Chuck Berry fairly quickly
-Mudhoney had a blues feel whether they cared or not.

All those bands "grooved" a LOT more than the current crop of indie rockers tho for sure (with the exception of Beat Happening)

Would it be oversimplification to say that rock's black affectations just got kind of played out?

Pavement sounded fresh (albeit I came to them late) in part because they seemed like such an antidote to grunge's *soulfulness*, which by the time Eddie Vedder was doing it felt like a caricature of a caricature.

To jerks.

:P

I would love to write a book about how Pavement ruined rock for a generation. I also think, besides whitening up the landscape irreparably, they're responsible for making it cool to pretend like you're not moved by what you're playing.

so many years, i thought i was alone...

well now there's emo so chillax

(not to mention the fact that a lot of the most popular white music [way more popular than Arcade Fire] is still very miscegenated [which I guess has been pointed out upthread])

I'd say it would be an over-simplification to go with that 'played out' argument. Commercial radio in America would not accept much post-punk or other rock with black influences or affectations, and then you had the later more straightforward pop r'n'b sounding musical attempts by Scritti Politti and others (and all kindsa rap and reggae and African sounds and Chicago house happening simultaneously), so it seemed to me like there were various wells that were being drawn from but not emptied. Pavement seemed to take post-Big Black noiserock (that drew from Wire) and eventually add melody, REM jangle, and songcraft back to indie in a way that was very different from grunge's hard rock and alt rock hybrid. Although eventually Pavement lost their urgency as Malkmus embraced Brit-folk and prog. Sasha asserts on the podcast that "Smells Like Teen Spirit" had a funky rhythm.

i'm not sure how one goes from saying that the indie band that most excites them right now is grizzly bear to saying that they go to indie shows and pine for rhythm.

also if there was anyone in indie who would try and unironically imitate r. kelly, it would be devandra banhart. (for all i know he already has.)

I mean, given that we all agree that indie bands such as Battles, Vampire Weekend, CocoRosie, etc do have some elements of black music, I think the question he's really pussyfooting around with this whole piece is more "Why do we STILL have boring, revisionist, funkless Leave It Beaver bullshit bands like Arcade Fire and Band Of Horses and Clap Your Hands and Hold Steady when everyone has such easy access to such diverse music?"

-- Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 03:28 (1 hour ago) Link

why does this indie music WITH 'elements of black music' still sound boring and funkless. i mean seriously, cocorosie?? im sure there are mostly-white-sounding indie rock bands that sound less bland just as there are crazy interesting genre hopping weirdos like missy elliott or whatever.

i guess im just repeating strongo but yeah, too much idealizing of 'miscegenation' as ideal. sometimes i dont like to throw all the ingredients into one pot

xpost I thought immediately of Will Oldham's cover of "Ignition", but I guess that was a couple of years ago.

was actually kind of thinking about this issue of vocals while listening to some mid period (post S&G, pre Graceland) paul simon records ... and how his voice always sounds very distinctively his own, no matter how strong the influence of zydeco ('that was your mother') or gospel or whatever on each individual song ... he really tended to avoid that pat obvious charicature of black vox but still seemed to incorporate these different musical influences

not saying its an 'ideal,' just an example of effect bouncing of genre ideas

did anyone else hear that story about the rapture talking to timbaland to produce a couple of tracks for their last album, but even with him being enthusiastic about the idea and wanting to cut them a special deal, the fee was their entire recording budget or something?

also battles has a black member whose dad is an accomplished and revered jazz musician. they're coming from a different place than basically every single band mentioned here or in sjf's article.

Even without that, Battles has gone on the record saying they basically discovered weird detours of hip-hop and electronic music via the same internet that everyone has.

strongo saying that asking arcade fire to embrace black music rather than what they like is just as retarded as asking trae to embrace springsteen is the most otm thing said here.

the same trae who rapped over 'smells like teen spirit' on his last mixtape?

whatever maybe trae is a strawman use yung joc or styles p or whoever you want.

not like rapping over 'smells like teen spirit' is embracing a whole culture of music (which is what sfj is basically asking for, tho i doubt you read this article). especially in that two/three month kitschy post-'party like a rockstar' period.

Most rap dudes already love rock though.

You've seen 'em at Arcade Fire gigs or Battles or Metallica or Mellencamp?

Metallica, sure.

it's funny that LCD are brought up as one of the ignored strands of indie getting rhythm; I wonder now how the arcade fire record would've turned out if james murphy had've produced it, as was the plan.

I wonder now how the arcade fire record would've turned out if james murphy had've produced it, as was the plan.

lol what.

ok wait don't answer that i don't feel like derailing this thread over some brooklyn vegan rumor.

xxx-post

Swizz Beats worked with Metallica, Joe Budden raps over Metallica, Lil Jon sites Metallica as in influence for the new record.

where does hot chip fit into this?

hey, i'm just going off an interview i read. they're definitely getting remixed by him, i know that much. (xxp)

The heavily compressed frequencies of indie rock cause iPod headphones to vibrate, literally massaging Nick Southall's writing career.

yeah hot chip.

um white stripes?

this is really easy backseat driving for us, as we don't have a "point" to make, and we've had a night to think about it.

and sfj didn't 3 years?

didn't have*

ant dude give me some time, i only just clicked on this thread

um

uh

okay i got nothing

and sfj didn't 3 years?

I assumed this was written in a Bangsian fit of spontaneous inspiration

oh maybe. i was just referring to the ilm thead started by sfj (linked here by john d.) that basically introduces the idea brought up in the article.

from 4 years ago actually.

"About five years ago, indie rockers began to rediscover the pleasures of rhythm."

-SF/J

bears repeating

whatever maybe trae is a strawman use yung joc or styles p or whoever you want.

-- Jordan Sargent, Tuesday, 16 October 2007 05:02 (45 minutes ago) Link

the same yung joc who said on the radio he listens to gnarles barkley & my chemical romance and that his fav album is tougher than leather? the same styles p who gives props to the ramones & ended his last album with 3 rock remixes? etc etc big surprise ol' j sargent not knowing wtf hes talking bout as usual