that said, you can be an idealistic agnostic and practicing atheist (that's what i am); i don't know if there's a god, but i don't behave as if there is.
― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 01:28 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 01:28 (twenty-one years ago) link
100% OTM. I've felt this way for a long time.
― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 01:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 01:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
I like that!
Truly, I don't know. This question of god is a big one, and I think I'd rather wrestle with it than not. So far in my "is there a god vein?" I've decided the personification of deity thing that we've done so far isn't god. Right now, my god concept sort of hovers somewhere around "I am/We are" but that could change.
Also, I'm really not the least bit interested in having my god kick the ass of anybody else's god, or non-god.
― ragnfild (ragnfild), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 01:34 (twenty-one years ago) link
last weekend my aunt told me maybe i believe in "a non-theistic conception of god." i'm still confused by that.
― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 01:37 (twenty-one years ago) link
Are saying God as a physical being didn't use a hand and write it. That is true, but It says in 2 Timothy "All scripture is God-breathed" and many other places the Bible is called God's word
― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 06:02 (twenty-one years ago) link
Using reason and not faith (which wouldn't mean anything) my explination why this isn't true is that the Bible has prophecies that point to later parts in the Bible.
― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 06:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 06:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― wish i lived under Stalin, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 07:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
― stevo (stevo), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 07:22 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Kiwi, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 07:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
Kiwi, don't you have other friends around who can make your arguments more persuasively?
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 07:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Kiwi, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 07:37 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 07:52 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Kiwi, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 08:07 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 08:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
Look I can happily trundle out a few thousand words of my own thoughts on aspects of religion. Take the question at hand earlier about evidence for son of God, I dont have blind faith alone, but I marvel at those who do.
Some of my faith will be based on philosophy, especially extrasensory truths or transemperical , you know man is not just an object, but also man in himself(man as a person).Some on Old testament predictions that have been fufilled, and far too accurate to be be flukes for me.Some on the amazing historical detail and accuracy of the New Testament, especially Luke. Athethist scholars marvel at the accuracy and detail in his writing. Some on physical historical evidence. None of which by itself proves anything, but pieced all together gives me a solid base to believe in the word of God.
I have said before I acknowledge mysteries as such, you know full well there are things you cannot explain in life.I believe humans are spiritual and I believe in Christ as an explanation for these mysteries. As stupid as you take me for, and Im pretty thick, I dont think you calling my religion "irredeemably awful" gets us anywhere. So I dont engage you in your assertions, I can see drawn out debates on nature and human instinct and alpha males etc relating to organised religion yet alone Peter getting the keys and the rock and more scripture and papl history... we are so far apart I dont see much hope for understanding.
Im rambling I need to go to sleep. God Bless :)
― Kiwi, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 09:19 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Miss Laura, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 09:27 (twenty-one years ago) link
I love the idea of suzy hacking her way through the rainforest to investigate one more religion before being disappointed for the last time.
― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 09:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 09:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 09:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
there seems a fundamental difference in these 2 formulations for me. i think the latter makes more sense, i mean i don't believe in german speaking pigeons, but i'm not a believer in *No german speaking pigeons* if you see what i mean...
2. whether religion is silly or not doesnt seem hugely relevant. as long as it doesnt impinge on other peoples freedoms then fine.
3. why *vs christianity*?. why not christianity vs islam or hinduism? i had an interesting discussion with a religious (non-organized) person earlier this year. i believed christianity should not be taught in schools, and that people should make their own decision outside of school. they said not teaching them it is as prejudicial to their opinion as teaching it would be. quite a good point, but then, why christianity and not islam? why choose one over another (and then, which branch?) unless you're going to teach them all? but then how many? and they all have claims on the *truth*, whatever that is
― gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 09:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
I have gone to church for most of my life but I have started to question it. along with everything else. and now I am this cynical wreck you see before you very phoneline.
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 10:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
I'd also say that if followers of a specific religion are rendered misguided, it's because of the falseness of their belief, and doesn't have much to do with ANY form of atheism or agnosticism.
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 10:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
― RickyT (RickyT), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 10:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 11:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
I don't see any particular problem with this. Moreover, in my experience, it is always the 'weak' atheists who suffer from the failings that Dan was so OTM about earlier. Not that all 'weak' athesits do, mind you, but I think those who try to justify their atheism via purely rational means are more susceptible to coming off like know-it-all assholes.
― J (Jay), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 12:19 (twenty-one years ago) link
"Organised religion" historically has been awful and useful - in a pre-democratic society the opposition of secular and non-secular authority provided the same kind of braking mechanism party systems do now - the church could serve as an 'opposition' to political leaders and vice versa. In a democratic society I can definitely see a place for "religion" on an individual basis but not the organisations that sprung up around it.
― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 12:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 17:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 18:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
Its not a belief system. Hence, B).
>>3. why *vs christianity*?.<<
Eurocentric question. Really, it should be "Atheism vs. Theism". After all, there are religions in which there is no god (IE, Buddhism).
- Alan
― Alan Conceicao, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 18:52 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 19:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 19:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 19:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
That's just wrong.
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 19:37 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 19:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 20:11 (twenty-one years ago) link
― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 20:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
I suppose the word Religion can be a bit loaded in some peoples minds. I'd say that as a social entity it clearly does need other people, but as a spiritual one, it clearly doesn't.
If they had hunted Christians down to one guy hiding in the woods, praying daily and subsiding on roots and berries, would it still be religion? I'd say yes. Maybe not A Religion (checkbox in the census form), though.
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 20:25 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 20:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 20:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 20:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
http://www.lawrence.edu/fac/boardmaw/god_in_quad_berkeley.html
Prayer would seem to me to be something you can do by yourself, apart from god(s), and is fairly crucial to the whole endeavour. But that's a Catholic perspective. Are there other religions where you can't do something holy by yourself, by scripture rather than practice?
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 22:27 (twenty-one years ago) link
This depends on the strength of the agnosticism. "I don't know if God exists" is just a statement, as undeniable as "The sun is shining". Which is not as undeniable as 2+2=4, but that's another ballgame.
But "there is no way of knowing whether god exists" is like "The sun will come up tomorrow, because science says" or "The sun will come up tomorrow, thanks to Ra". You can build consistent world views around it, but it is clearly just a belief. It's a positive statement, and can't be proved right, just wrong.
Hrm. Guess who just read a book on Wittgenstein vs Popper, and thinks he knows the secrets of the ages?
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 22:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
hurhurhur.
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 22:36 (twenty-one years ago) link
Oh, I picked Atheism vs. Christianity because a few previous threads were discussing it, and Christianity has more cultural significants around here. Also, I was interested in others view of Christianity specifically.And I totally agree that public schools should have a world religion class. I would have loved to have anything other than American history in high school (I hardly had any social studies in school other than American history, it sucked.)
and as for Tom's explination of his atheism,
"I'm with J. Religion shifts the argument into a non-rational sphere with the introduction of the concept of 'faith' and I'm happy to enter that sphere. I have no faith, indeed I have a felt absence of faith, therefore I am an atheist."
I think that is a great explination. For me, who believes in predestination of man, Tom would be an example of someone who is seemingly not predestined.
― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 22:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 22:45 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Maria (Maria), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 00:21 (twenty-one years ago) link
All very Judy Blume book, I know, but I drew the inevitable conclusion with half the bizarro Christian sects that if parents had followed any, I'd probably not be alive and writing this.
Good things about religion include great literature produced (where do we get the classic narrative structure of genesis, action, climax denoument anyway, from Greeks or subconscious parallel with How Sex Goes?) and that is why I am able to treat most of it like other, older myths and legends, there to provide object lessons to people who need them and to provide apocryphal plotlines to us what don't.
Maria's question is interesting. First awareness I had of the whole God thing was when I got to primary school and people told me they went to Sunday School, that's how agnostic my folks are. Also when my elder grandfather died, when I was seven, by coincidence there were all these weird Life After Death programmes doing the rounds of the cheapo TV stations and I just sat there watching all these weird talkshow people talking about out of body experiences whilst meeting their pal, The Light, getting told 'it's not your time' by a Marcus Welby type voice and getting sucked back down to the hospital bed. Very 'ooh, freaky, better not tell anyone I'm watching this, they'll freak out because of Grandpa but this is *fascinating*' vibe.
― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 01:21 (twenty-one years ago) link
it would be nice if for instance you got free rent and utilities if you ran a food bank
Yea, verily, hath not our toll been paid back tenfold when the Lord commandeth we make food, not bombes?
― Philip Nunez, Sunday, 26 July 2015 19:19 (eight years ago) link
I thought this was a q of charities/ventures run by religious groups rather than religious institutions donating money, which seems less complicated
― ogmor, Sunday, 26 July 2015 20:13 (eight years ago) link
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/number-of-muslims-worldwide-expected-to-nearly-equal-number-of-christians-by-2050-religiously-unaffiliated-will-make-up-declining-share-of-worlds-population/
With the exception of Buddhists, all of the world’s major religious groups are poised for at least some growth in absolute numbers in the coming decades. Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion – though also increasing in absolute numbers – will make up a declining share of the world’s total population.
sorry atheists :(
― Mordy, Thursday, 30 July 2015 14:24 (eight years ago) link
ffffffuck.
― how's life, Thursday, 30 July 2015 14:36 (eight years ago) link
time for richard dawkins to launch a quiverfull campaign and get duggar-size broods of atheist families firing out kids at every opportunity
― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, 30 July 2015 14:37 (eight years ago) link
Richard Dawkins @RichardDawkins 1h1 hour ago
The #fuckforscience campaign begins here! #barebackin'
― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, 30 July 2015 14:39 (eight years ago) link
really? I"d heard religious affiliations were shrinking worldwide. hmm.
― Hammer Smashed Bagels, Thursday, 30 July 2015 14:50 (eight years ago) link
we know that high quality of modern living standards correlate to lowered birth rates and vice-versa so it's not really surprising
― Mordy, Thursday, 30 July 2015 14:53 (eight years ago) link
pewforum
― irl lol (darraghmac), Thursday, 30 July 2015 21:21 (eight years ago) link