people who do nothing

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ok so a friend of mine is doing nothing. at all. it's not just that he's doing nothing - he isn't even looking for something to do. no job or regular study/activity course of any kind - and not even on the look-out for one. not drawing the dole, he lives with his parents and they seem happy to fund his life of idleness. he becomes irritable when quizzed about his next move so all his friends have given up trying. he gambles a fair bit, and loses a lot. he's pretty intelligent, did a good leaving cert too. we've been out of school 3 years, he's dropped out of 2 college courses (funded by his parents), taken a long holiday in canada (funded by his parents). he had a temporary job for a couple of months, but he got fired for being rude to the boss. he's gone on quite a long stretch of doing absolutely nothing, i think it must be 7 or 8 months now, without even applying for a job. he's currently in portugal watching euro 2004 (funded by his parents).

have you ever gone for ages without doing anything? would you like to do nothing if someone was willing to finance it? or if you had a regular source of income that didn't involve working? like, inheritance or a large lottery win. like hugh grant in "about a boy"

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, I spent about two years doing that. It leads automatically to self-knowledge. I highly recommend it.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i actually think doing nothing could be fun, alas i have no-one / no thing who/that will finance it. i have the next four days off from work, and i think it would be ok to stretch it to 7 :-)

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:46 (twenty-one years ago)

colin, how did you finance it?

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Heh heh, erm, classic, that is, until the money runs out.

He wants to be me (kate), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Fuckers.

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Mrs Robinson to thread.

mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I would LOVE to do nithing, but yes, I have no-one to fund me. With a sufficient lottery win, I would live the life of the idle rich, fitting into the role with very little effort, as would befit my new role.

Johnney B (Johnney B), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:50 (twenty-one years ago)

My sister did this for a long while she now works as a stylist which is almost the same thing only better paid.

Ed (dali), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, as someone who lived this lifestyle for about 2 years (trust fund), I have a lot to add about both the advantages and not so obvious disadvantages of it. But, unfortunately, I'm back in the world of having to work for a living, and my job is demanding my attention right now, so I'll be back with a serious and non-facetious answer soon...

He wants to be me (kate), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:51 (twenty-one years ago)

if doing nothing = watching dvds and reading, then that's what i want. my g/f's brother more or less does nothing by living at home, and he's 27. if you can live w/ your parents, why not i guess -- but it does emotionally retard you imo.

Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I supported doing nothing with my PhD grant. Did I finish my PhD? Nuh.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:55 (twenty-one years ago)

i lot of people i've put this question to have said "i'd get bored!" but i think i'd still find plenty of ways to occupy my time. my friend's life seems ok, he always has enough money to go out for beers with his friends. i suppose it's his parents i'm more baffled by, they aren't putting very strong pressure on him to do something.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:56 (twenty-one years ago)

i lot = a lot

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 08:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Famous layabouts in history who finally came good after a period of bumming around:

Chuang Tzu
Albert Einstein
William James
E.M. Cioran
Shakyamuni Buddha

the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:00 (twenty-one years ago)

apart from having no money, 4 months on the dole was quite cool, I saw a lot of footie and played a lot of computer games, read a lot too.

chris (chris), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I've been doing nothing for a month.

I am utterly bored.

I don't have any money though, just bed and board.

I want to do something.

cozen (Cozen), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Start reading Chuang Tzu and E.M. Cioran! It'll suddenly all make sense.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:02 (twenty-one years ago)

My goal at the moment is to live without having to get out of my dressing gown at any point in the day. This isn't exactly the same though - if I was doing absolutely nothing but idle pleasure through the lottery or something, my conscience would come and tear strips off me and force me to work.

Vic Fluro, Monday, 28 June 2004 09:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't.

cozen (Cozen), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:04 (twenty-one years ago)

And read the journal of the incomparable, the marvellous, Joel Biroco:

http://www.biroco.com/journal.htm

the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:08 (twenty-one years ago)

the problem with doing nothing is that you need the money earned through work to fill all that free time with interesting activities (or at least, it would help)?

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I am completely incapable of doing this.

Ed (dali), Monday, 28 June 2004 09:49 (twenty-one years ago)

In one sense I do nothing, in another sense I'm working all the time.

I find this an interesting question. In the 90s there was a trend for 'doing nothing', it fitted into the 'lounge' movement, The Idler magazine, etc. In Japan right now there's a movement called Slow Life which is about making the best of economic slowdown, making your life ecologically sustainable, becoming post-industrial, enjoying nature, etc. There's also a movement of 'Freeters', people who work the bare minimum in order to have the free time they need to pursue hobbies or just coast. The Japanese called people who stay at home with their parents late into life hikikomori -- 'the barricaded ones'. Hikkies (as they're called for short) overlap with Freeters: sometimes they have an undemanding job on the side which brings in just enough money for them to pay their mobile phone bills and buy new Playstation games.

There are marked differences in attitude between, say, Japan and China, and continental Europe and US/UK. In China and US/UK, people tend to work very hard even when given the opportunity not to. Work is seen as the locus of meaning and social connection. It has a value in itself. Continental Europe and (increasingly) Japan share a certain 'post-work' mentality. There's a marked and growing interest in quality of life issues. Pleasure (like eating well) comes before profit, and life is a higher value than work. Post-work societies are 'post-industrial'. They're also post-protestant.

I can't post (and posting is work in itself) without mentioning my mate Pat Kane and his forthcoming book 'The Play Ethic'. His blog, Play Journal, is here. Pat is full of interesting ideas about how Play is replacing Work in post-industrial societies.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:10 (twenty-one years ago)

They're also post-protestant

I don't mean to say that Japan was ever protestant. But some equivalent of what we know as 'the Protestant Work Ethic' has existed there, and they're now getting over it. There's a marked generation gap. Older Japanese bemoan the laziness of the young, but also indulge them and spoil them and give them access to their savings.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:16 (twenty-one years ago)

play.

cozen (Cozen), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Just as Cage said there is no such thing as silence -- even in a hyperbaric chamber we still hear the hiss of blood in our ears and the thump of our hearts -- so there is no such thing as 'doing nothing'. Satan finds work for idle hands.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I have done nothing for a very long time. Sometimes I feel the urge to do something, but I am increasingly ill-equipped. At the moment, in fact, I am interested in doing something, but I don't, yet, I still do nothing.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I've had long periods of doing nothing (4 months tops, feels long enough) and after a while, they didn't have the glamorous allure I thought such periods entailed.

I am not a mandible (Barima), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Nothing always turns into something in the end. You end up doing something - often not what people wanted you to do.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm always struck by actors in interviews when they talk about 'resting'. Some mention of 'watching the soaps on daytime TV' seems obligatory. I must say it makes me think that actors have no sense of initiative. I mean, they could at least become perverts or something. Anything is better than being slumped in front of daytime TV. (Although I suppose in the case of actors, that's how they keep in touch with what their friends are up to.)

Momus (Momus), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, for actors it could be more work, in disguise. Like listening to music for you perhaps.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Pleasure (like eating well) comes before profit, and life is a higher value than work. Post-work societies are 'post-industrial'. They're also post-protestant.

Of course, eating well isn't cheap. Back in March/April I experimented with less office work (though for me reading/watching DVDs is half-work) but couldn;t do it economically: I fucking NEED consumer goods (books, DVDs). So fricking sue me. Living with your parents is fucked up. This is one of those topics where I become completely authoritarian-irrational. But my parents used to take in language students from all over Yurp and East Asia, so there's an empirical nub to this.

The French 35-hour thing is interesting. This weekend I watched Pialat's 'Police' -- about a driven guy. I feel stale if I'm not doing anything, though that needn't include office work.

Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:48 (twenty-one years ago)

People who do nothing and get paid for it v. People who do nothing at their own expense.

People who lose money by doing nothing v. People who earn money by doing nothing.

People whose life is shortened by doing nothing v. People whose life is prolonged by doing nothing.

People who evolve, flower and become happy doing nothing v. People who wilt and get miserable doing nothing.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:51 (twenty-one years ago)

People whose life is prolonged by doing nothing.

And don't tell me 'it just feels longer'.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:52 (twenty-one years ago)

If this thread were a job, I'd definately have earned my tea break by now.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:53 (twenty-one years ago)

doing nothing is essential, for health and mental stability

charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:53 (twenty-one years ago)

well, it's a matter of degree, we aren't talking about kicking back of a sunday eve here.

Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I get my best ideas when I'm doing nothing - something to do with the brain not being fully engaged or vaguely between two or three different things. (Although that in itself a 'doing something' justification for doing nothing. As a culture we're very negative about doing nothing but it does seem essential in some way.)

Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:55 (twenty-one years ago)

yea, we're talking managing to escape the all pervasive shackles of calvinist work ethic, and its dominance and control over everyday life

charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 28 June 2004 10:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Cool track, Momus, up there.

mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:00 (twenty-one years ago)

We begin our lives doing "nothing" and end them the same way, some capacity to enjoy it seems kinda useful

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I spent 2 years after taking a redundancy technically "doing nothing", tho I did do web pages for friends, and a bit of study, but I let the time spiral out way longer than I should have because I could - cheap rent, savings, a payout and easy access to dole meant I was never on the desperate edge. It was good I suppose, as my hours were filled, but filled with things that perhaps in the end messed with my head - I was in a LDR so I spent a LOT of time online talking to the other half. I dont like working because I have to, to be honest - but that structure keeps me sane, because without it, if I had the means to do nothing, I fear I'd fall into a booze and drug filled hole.

Thats just me, tho.

Trayce (trayce), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Me too, and I kinda have at points (hey there two years in bed! You sucked!)

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

yep i would wilt and die without work for sure. i have finished exams so had no study to do this sunday.... i was nearly crawling the walls with boredom by about 11am. sad in one way...

gem (trisk), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Boredom is a bit like what Quentin Crisp said about dust. After four years it doesn't get any worse.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I see Pat Kane is doing something on the play ethic at the book fest.
http://programme2004.edbookfest.co.uk/events/event-216

leigh (leigh), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I only have a part-time job and the rest of the time I'm writing my first novel, but even that only takes up a couple of hours of the day. The rest of the time I'm kind of doing nothing. But doing nothing keeps me pretty busy, what with all the books to read and threads to post to and walks to go on and grocery shopping and cooking to do. I find that I really resent the couple of days I'm at work because it totally eats into my doing nothing. I used to watch daytime TV years ago, but I don't even do that anymore. I am more than happy to forego the expensive consumer lifestyle in favour of the do nothing lifestyle. But most of my friends are not.

accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I had my cable TV cut off two weeks ago and hardly noticed the difference. If they cut off my DSL, though, I'd be screaming.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I think for me, my job is my doing-nothing. All the things Im thinking I could be doing if not for my job...

Trayce (trayce), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:18 (twenty-one years ago)

i havent seen the film l'emploi du temps since i saw it but it would terrify me even more so now i think

prima fassy (mwah), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I spent the best part of 10 years doing "nothing" - funded by the dole and not wanting or needing much money for entertainment. Over the past couple of years I've been alternating between temp jobs and travelling the world. I think I probably prefer doing nothing.

Charles Dexter (Holey), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Doing nothing is fine providing you have plenty of friends to do nothing with.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:40 (twenty-one years ago)

It can also be important not to have too many friends, if you seriously want to pursue doing nothing.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Monday, 28 June 2004 11:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Doing nothing for short periods of time is utterly necessary - it's called recreation for a reason. It gives your brain a period of rest and you are able to re-create yourself. Or, erm, something.

Doing absolutely nothing for long stretches of time is actually incredibly difficult. Depends on the boredom threshold, really - for some people this is weeks, for some months.

I realise that I lie when I said I spent two years "doing nothing". That's not true. During that period, I recorded one proper album, several singles, toured the UK 3 or 4 times, wrote 1 finished novel and a host of unfinished ones. Not lucrative, perhaps, but hardly nothing.

In point of fact, the times when I have done utterly nothing have been incredibly harmful for me. I require some kind of structure, even if it's just the structure of going to the studio or rehearsals or whatever, cause otherwise my brain starts to eat itself. When I do nothing at all for more than about a month, I start to develop symptoms of directionlessness, low self esteem, depression, and ultimately mental illness.

It makes sense on some kind of evolutionary psychology level (oh no, I'm sorry, I've been on the Dawkins again) - imagine some combination of genes which resulted in an individual who was perfectly happy doing nothing. They don't cultivate food, so they starve. No "nothing gene" descendents for them! Even if their parents choose to take care of them, that is effort expended on maintaining an adult offspring which would otherwise have been expended producing many offspring. One "lazy gene" offspring survives while another parent may have raised several offspring. Individuals with a combination of genes which resulted in a "easily bored" behaviour style end up with some kind of action, which, more likely or not, may be the action of finding sustinence, or mating, or any of those other things likely to ensure more progeny. So the "easily bored" gene increases.

Of course, this is an overly simplistic way of looking at complex behaviour.

He wants to be me (kate), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

As much about capitalism as Calvinism, shurely?

Anyway, I am unhappy when I'm not 'working' in either an economically active sense or a creative sense, whereas Matt is the opposite.

Although doing nothing even for him may really mean 'not HAVING to do anything' and actually involves cooking, gardening, meditation, reading, thought, etc.

Archel (Archel), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0140439218.01.LZZZZZZZ

ENRQ (Enrique), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, I guess to answer the original question, I would love to have an alternative source of income again, so that I didn't have to work a tedious dayjob and could concentrate on my "aesthetic" work, ha ha, writing saucy rock novels and bubblegum symphonies.

But I think that I've found a worthwhile compromise, working in an office part time, and working on my own stuff part time.

I don't know, though. I've known people like the person described in the original question, and they have been, in my experience, quite deeply unhappy and discontented people. It would be nice to think of them as happy go lucky types. The ones that *are* rare enough to be happy go lucky types seem to be the ones who have *found* their calling or whatever, and use their luxury to persue an alternate goal. The ones who just drift, often are drifting in many senses of the word.

He wants to be me (kate), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I do think it's as much about society and the mode of production and expectations within capitalism etc etc as personality, though.

(NB. I have not read the above book but if I was not currently having nightmares about my pending grade for the last bit of my masters and trying to have a rest from academic work over the summer, I would.)

Weber (Archel), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:18 (twenty-one years ago)

It's interesting, the association by the early C20th left of heartless capitalism and protestantism, in that it's a kind of mirror image of the right-wing association of Jews with heartless capitalism. I know very little about the content of Judaism, but Weber was seriously OTM abt protestantism. I mean the association of progressive/heartless capitalism and puritanism in Germany, England, and Holland is historically verifiable.

Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Rosebud, Montana
November 30, 1985
Dear Sir:

Show the enclosed paper to others, make copies if you like.

I am 51, a Paranoid Schizophrenic, High School Diploma, Pentecostal, 6'1" tall, 225 pounds, black hair, green eyes, and get Social Security Disability.

I was born in Forsyth and still live with my parents. My brother Bob is a medical doctor.

I spent 3 years in the No. Dak. State Hospital and had 50 insulin coma shock treatments. I escaped once with a car and butcher knife and was nearly killed by the Police.

I have never stolen, raped, or killed. A psychiatrist, Dr. Martin Freese, said it was a miracle.

I have had sex with over 120 women, most of them prostitutes.

I am a very handsome and charming Virgo, same as Alexander the Great, Ivan the Terrible, John Wilkes Booth, Jesse James, Admiral Bligh, Emperor Augustus, Cesare Borgia, Cardinal Richelieu, Marquis de Lafayette, von Wallenstein, General John J. Pershing, Louis the 14th and Richard the Lionhearted.

In 1965, I received a batch of letters from Wyoming school children, saying that my Buffalo Bill song called Pahaska, was their favorite song and was sung in class every day.

According to neurologists, I have suffered far more than any human who ever lived, because when I was insane, I had skeining power. Skein is found in Goulds Medical Dictionary.

According to psychologists, I am the smartest man ever to walk on the earth.

I would like to personally impregnate hundreds of bright single women in order to produce a crop of great geniuses to improve the world.

Thank you for disseminating this information.

Sincerely,

Tom Lloyd

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"He had an unusual kind of visual imagery that penetrated his thought process. He could actually see his concepts. He did more to advance science by the sheer power of thought alone, than any scientist who ever lived.
Said of Albert Einstein

Your imagination is unusual. You picture Spiritual, Materialistic, and Philosophical pictures, and have the ability to retain the pictures. Whew!!
Said of Tom Lloyd, by Olive Gilbert, a Certified Handwriting Expert

There's a horrible amount of intelligence here going to waste.
Said of Tom Lloyd, by Arthur Ellerd, Psychologist

In July, Pete Bruno, the psychologist at the Mental Health Center in Forsyth, told me that I am probably the smartest human ever born in the world. You have an I.Q. that is out of this world.
Said of Tom Lloyd, by Gus Anderson, Missionary

With your mind, you could conquer the world.
Said of Tom LLoyd, by Kenneth Lavers

No one who ever lived on the earth, has suffered as much as you have.
Said of Tom Lloyd, by Dr. Martin A. Ruona Billings, Mont. neurologist.

Imagination is more powerful than knowledge.
Said by Einstein

How are we going to put your great intellect to work to benefit mankind? How are we going to turn it loose? If you don't use your mind, it will be a great loss to the world.
Said of Tom Lloyd, by Dr. William G. Rodd, Psychologist

You aren't normal, Tom..tremendous minds like yours are only found in insane asylums.
Said of Tom Lloyd, by Rev. Hubert C. Robinson

My intellect is gigantic, monstrous, terrifying.

dave amos, Monday, 28 June 2004 12:33 (twenty-one years ago)

the friend in the original question seems happy enough at the moment, i think. we have had a troubled history, didn't speak for about three years after a bad-tempered fall-out. he's very used to getting his own way at home. he suffered from eating disorders as a youth, and throughout his teenage years he would threaten not to eat if his parents carried out any punishments against him. i suspect that this is why the parents are unwilling to pressurise him into doing something too strongly, and are still giving him money.

he's much more relaxed these days though, easier to get on with. i'm sure he knows he can't live this way forever (or can he?). i'm guessing he intends to move out of home at some stage and he'll definitely need money to do that. i've never tried to engage him in a lengthy discussion about his future plans, friends who have were shut down quickly with replies along the lines of "it's my life, i'll do what i want with it" which is fair enough really. i'll be interested to see how long he goes without doing anything, he's ruled out the possibility of doing a course next year, so who knows, maybe another 12 months of doing nothing?

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:38 (twenty-one years ago)

If you ask me, it sounds, on so many levels, like this guy is heading for disaster. But, you know, it's his disaster.

He wants to be me (kate), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

i think he may have some vague plan to become a war photographer, but in a "one day, maybe..." kinda way. he seems hesitant to actually pursue the career any time soon, or even learn some skills that may one day help him, so i dunno.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Tough on his parents too - being held to ransom like that

Penelope_111 (Penelope_111), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:56 (twenty-one years ago)

(i don't think he still uses the "not eating" threats, though obviously i don't know what goes on between him and his parents behind closed doors. i know he used to, and i know he became very accustomed to having his own way as a result)

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:58 (twenty-one years ago)

But to change it to "I'm off to be a war photographer..."?

mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 28 June 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I was talking to a friend yesterday about the gendered aspect of this very issue: in our experience men who were stuck in a do nothing trap (ie. they did WANT to do something) found it much harder to get going than women, because they were worried about not succeeding straight away and completely, whereas women seemed more willing to try, or at least to take the first steps without worrying so much about achieving the big picture. I wonder if the expectations society still places on men to succeed are sometimes just too daunting?

Archel (Archel), Monday, 28 June 2004 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd say so. But I'm a git.

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 28 June 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

these are the kind of people that piss me off to no end. I can see if your a self-made person who has some money that you've earned by working and then decide to take a little time off. But if your funded by your parents when your approaching 30 and have no future lined up for yourself you deserve to be given a good ass whipping.

Velveteen Bingo (Chris V), Monday, 28 June 2004 13:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I think some people have very legitimate doubts and fears about joining the rat race, getting on the career ladder, whatever. Which is fine. But ultimately everyone has to find a way of living, if not a Way of Life, that lets them survive, and you don't do that by waiting for inspiration to just land on you while watching TV.

Archel (Archel), Monday, 28 June 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I did nothing for two years in my mid-twenties after my father died. Then my life insurance money was spent and I had to get a job right away. It was great, though. I watched lots of reruns and drank a lot of beer.

kyle (akmonday), Monday, 28 June 2004 13:32 (twenty-one years ago)

One of the problems with having any "serious" creative aspirations is that it's impossible to really do nothing: whatever time you can free up from money-earning work is immediately filled by the even more arduous projects you keep at home. I did more "nothing" back when I had a full-time job than I do now, now that I've moved to New York to work on writing.

I will admit to feeling a slight and obviously irrational resentment toward my many friends in this writing program who don't have jobs. I assume this is just human, and it's very mild. And it tends to only come out when they talk for months about looking for a job and then don't get one, or when I ask what they've been doing and they just say, you know, "writing." I don't know where their money comes from (I know I get more funding than most, and I'm still about to get evicted), and I'm not sure what they do with their time (I know I produce more material than several of them combined), but God bless them they're lovely people and make remarkably sympathetic faces-of-horror when you tell them you're working (gasp) 30 hours a week.

nabiscothingy, Monday, 28 June 2004 15:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, it's funny: the whole appeal of being, say, a successful writer is that you get to have a job, technically, but in point of fact you're doing exactly what you'd be doing if you were doing "nothing" (i.e., writing and not really being able to pay your bills).

nabiscothingy, Monday, 28 June 2004 15:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't write when I'm NOT working. I mean, often I can't write when I AM either, but give me a week with nothing in it and I'm guaranteed not to produce a single line. Luckily, as I write poetry, I'm never likely to be in a position where I could ONLY write, even if I wanted to.

Archel (Archel), Monday, 28 June 2004 15:11 (twenty-one years ago)

If you really do get evicted, Nabisco, come live in Berlin. You can have a good apartment for $300 a month or less.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 28 June 2004 15:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm fascinated with doing nothing. I'd like to think I'd be great at it...I could practice a lot more, read, cook, clean, etc and be happy doing it. If I was leeching off someone the guilt would be pretty overpowering though.

I have friends who vehemently feel that they shouldn't have to work full-time. They live in very low-rent areas so this is feasible, except when something else comes up that requires money. On one hand I applaud them, why work when you could be writing songs and hanging out in coffeeshops after all, and I'm a little jealous. On the other hand it brings out this grizzled "life is pain, everyone has to work for a living" side of me that I didn't even know I had (and that I don't especially like...it probably comes back to jealousy).

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 28 June 2004 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I have two friends who havn't done anything for about 2 years, one of them handles it really well with no real social problems and he also has lots of ideas about what he wants to do, the other one seems to skitz out on occasion and doesn't have any real ambition at all. I did nothing for a while and I have to say it pretty much did my head in, i'm the sort of person that has to do something. Even if it's crappy work that I hate. At least that way I can get to sleep at night instead of becoming an insomniac supreme.

mangA Kid (mangA Kid), Monday, 28 June 2004 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

OTOH, is it better to sleep easy because you don't have to think about tomorrow because you're going to same old job every day, or to lie awake thinking about oceans of possibility?

(I am musing a lot on this at the moment and I don't know the answer either.)

Archel (Archel), Monday, 28 June 2004 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Is it better to go to sleep because you know you have to get up for work in the morning, or sit awake staring the computer monitor playing flash games and refreshing ILX because you don't?

(this is not a rhetorical question)

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 28 June 2004 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Interesting answer, Jordon. I dunno, I swing back and forth on it. This is something that is actually tearing my life and my relationship apart right now.

Joe has often accused me of being "resentful" of his lifestyle (his family is independently wealthy, his mum gave him a flat, he does not have to have a full time job, so he can and does spend all his time on art and promotion of art) - but that would be completely hypocritical of me.

What I'm resentful of is that I have to work 3 days a week, and that he doesn't. Sheer simple envy. Which is not the same as resentment. Or perhaps I don't really recognise how much actual hard work goes into what he does.

Lots of people *don't* have to work for a living. Life isn't fair that way. I guess I have more respect for people who strike out and choose to do something constructive with that leisure, than for those who just dedicate themselves to the pursuit of wealth. Everyone hates a trustafarian, but why? I think it's the *pretense* at poverty that irks. I find the trustafarians' older brothers and sisters, who went on to Yale instead of Hampshire, and now fuck up the country with their urges for aquisition, instead of just fucking up their lives - I find them far more offensive.

This is an incoherent and ill-formed post, I know.

He wants to be me (kate), Monday, 28 June 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Agreed: it's not what you start with, it's what you do with it.

Archel (Archel), Monday, 28 June 2004 15:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I’m lucking out, Momus, with a little writing money that’ll take care of me for a while. Besides, the commute from Berlin to the Upper West Side will be a bitch.

Resenting someone for their ability to lay about is, sure, sort of pointless. The feelings of mild irritation when they complain about it, are great fun, and really pump up your own feeling of righteousness and determination. (Only in comparison to these folks can I be considered a hard worker.) My main genuine irritation with those privileged in this particular way is that in a city like New York, they genuinely fuck up the job and rental markets. It’s as if there are no paid positions left in this town anymore: just 2 hour a week unpaid internships for people who don’t actually need jobs.

nabiscothingy, Monday, 28 June 2004 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Not that I even blame them for that!

nabiscothingy, Monday, 28 June 2004 15:54 (twenty-one years ago)

surely there is a major difference between people who do NOTHING and people who don't work a steady job? i'm confused at the definition of "nothing" foax are employing on this thread

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 15:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I always have to be out and about doing something, but that's because I live with a maniac. It's good in a way, it makes me not want to sit around all the time. I probably spend less time in my apartment than anyone I know.

Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 28 June 2004 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I've just written a piece for Edgy Style Mag about classism and I mention those who are well-off enough to 'pay for school and work for free' sucking the egalitarian opportunities from the more competitive creative and media industries, and also law and any other profession which requires private postgrad qualifications. You know, those professions their fucking parents were able to enter with an actual living wage for an entry-level position and progress up the ladder etc, grrr grrrr.

Nabisco, you have had mail. What's up?

suzy (suzy), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Young peoply want to work in the media shocker!!

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)

shut up mark

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Funny you should mention it, Mark ;).

suzy (suzy), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Ooh, replying momentarily, Suzy!

nabiscothingy, Monday, 28 June 2004 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha. Suzy, I never worked for free thanks to parental generosity. The only unpaid work I've done has been a) work experience at 17, and b) helping people out as a favour. Oh, and while we're at it, my parents have never got me work either (beyond 2 weeks of book research after I graduated).

But thanks for giving me the chance to clear that up!

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I've suffered somewhat for the principle of never having permitted myself to work for free after graduation. Why should my parents - or anyone else's, for that matter - subsidise the administrative costs of some media conglomerate (which is where you'd file the 'work experience' grads) or be used to allow a window in the budget for yet more 'flowers for the model'?

Mark, that's *not* the seam I was digging! From what I've heard, your folks have these things called principles, okay? I wasn't just talking about media people; any desirable profession will allow you to "experience" work without paying you for it, and it's almost compulsory to have completed a tour of such duty before getting a real job.

suzy (suzy), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I tried this for a year - worked as much as possible (and saved) for six months and then took six months off to sleep 'til 5pm and go out with my friends every night., and I'd like to try it again someday (with an actual purpose).

I am completely incapable of pursuing my creative interests while simultaneously working a full-time day job (waiting tables/bartending or construction for me). Actually, I'm almost incapable of combining either work or creativity with an active social life. I can do one out of three well at a time. Maybe if I was into something that I could work on for a little while at a time every night, but if I'm going in the darkroom it has to be for a 12-hour stretch minimum or I think I'm wasting my time.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:24 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, I really did start appreciating the time I spend on gigs, recording, practicing, etc. so much more after I began working 40+ hours a week.

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Je4nne's dream: to be her own boss.

Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

You know then anything that went wrong would be your fault, right? And you'd have to risk $$$ and work 18 hour days and stuff?

But yeah, me too :)

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I've had several summers of severe introspection and doing of nothing. Not going on holiday or anything mind or spending much money at all, just watching every minute of a test match. Just a sort of statis situation. In hindsight, I should've read more books during the lazy days, coz I'd love to have the time to do that now.

jel -- (jel), Monday, 28 June 2004 16:57 (twenty-one years ago)

momus, can you get me a job, doing nothing?

RJG (RJG), Monday, 28 June 2004 17:06 (twenty-one years ago)

the best job they say is getting paid to shop. I'm not sure you can do that here.

cozen (Cozen), Monday, 28 June 2004 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

great thread. One of the things I've just been able to stop myself from doing is having a job or an apartment or even having things that other people (friends and family) expect me to have to define myself. Like, oh, you live in that neighborhood now? What, does this mean you're turning your back on success in business and making money? Or, oh you canceled your cable tv - why would anyone cancel their cable? Don't you watch the Sopranos? etc. I think about this question a lot and for me it often comes down to, am I going to go in for the artist bit or the businessman bit? But I hope the two are not mutually exclusive.

57 7th (calstars), Monday, 28 June 2004 18:27 (twenty-one years ago)

the artist bit and the businessman bit are tough to corral. can you manage your time well enough to be organized but still set time away to be creative? and if you're on a creative roll, can you stop what you're doing in order to pay bills and send out invoices? it sounds easy, but as a graphic designer starting his own business (and doing much of this 'nothing' of which we speak) i'm finding that my brain doesn't like to switch gears quite that quickly -- i think i'm more diesel than that.

Evanston Wade (EWW), Monday, 28 June 2004 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

It's probably a different story if you're self-employed. I work for a huge corporation, so I can pretty much leave my work at the office when I leave each night. And my creative pursuit, music, is far from what I do during the day, computers, so it's not hard to switch gears. I still don't get enough done as I'd like, though, but that's really due to laziness.

57 7th (calstars), Monday, 28 June 2004 19:22 (twenty-one years ago)

My problem is not that I do nothing, it's that I do very little and barely manage to scrape by. I have one main freelance client (I know, I know, what if she gets hit by a truck?) that brings in what would seem to be enough money to live comfortably on. So when I'm not doing work for this client, I tend to goof off watching tv and the internet for days at a time, when I could be drumming up new business that would put me in higher cotton. Two problems: I'm not a very good drummer, and I'm starting to realize that what I make from this client is not quite enough to get by. I can fool myself for months at a time, but I just had to spend $1600 for home repairs and $750 for car repairs, and the reality of the situation is suddenly hitting home.

Does anyone have a cattle prod handy?

Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Monday, 28 June 2004 19:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you do freelance drumming for this client?

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 28 June 2004 21:31 (twenty-one years ago)

No no no, read again. I should be drumming up business, but I'm not a very good drummer. It's a play on words! Get it? "Drumming... drummer." Hilarious!

Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Monday, 28 June 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I've spent a lot of time doing nothing lately as I figure out what to do next.. I don't like it much. I feel like I don't have the resume to get myself a job in a field that interests me, but don't want to just waste hours working a job I don't care about. Money's running really low. It's getting quite stressful really.

daria g (daria g), Monday, 28 June 2004 22:10 (twenty-one years ago)

people think doing nothing is easy, but nothing could be further from the truth. it's only easy at first.

captain gay, Monday, 28 June 2004 22:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Captain Gay, you are Captain OTM. I'm doing nothing because of inertia, not because doing nothing sounds good. I'd rather have 6 idle weeks a year than 26 idle weeks a year.

Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Monday, 28 June 2004 23:01 (twenty-one years ago)

"Just as Cage said there is no such thing as silence -- even in a hyperbaric chamber we still hear the hiss of blood in our ears and the thump of our hearts --"

I'm writing about John Cage right now and I'm finding it really difficult because so much of what he says/does seems contradictory. Not that there's necessarily something wrong with being contradictory but it makes him hard to write about. If his point is 'there's no such thing as silence/nothing is random/there's beauty and structure in everything' he seems like a traditional romantic, a naive aesthete, just a bit of an extenstion of the early nineteenth century. But if his point is to create a new kind of random language that really shakes up our way of perceiving the world, or somehow gets away from structure or the self or makes one exist entirely in the present, it's kind of undercut by his statements that people always make sense of things and find aesthetics in them etc. I don't get it!

sol, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry that I interrupted the flow of this thread. In answer to the question, I've never gone for a long period just doing nothing, and I'm immensely attracted to people who are capable of doing nothing. I find them really pleasant to be around and a good foil to my personality. I don't believe that there is a 'laziness' spectrum.

sol, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 01:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Is his point that structure is necessary but ultimately fleeting and incomplete?

I read The Book of Nothing a few years back and loved it.

Evanston Wade (EWW), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

3 years of law school = doing nothing. (which explains the grades.)

Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 01:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Sol, I think he's kind of you know, Zen inspired, and hence doesn't see these statements as contradictory at all, in the ultimate sense. He's very much informed by the Zen comings and goings of his era. See for examples of his specific inspirations the Diamond Cutter Sutra:

http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/diamond.html

Section VII. Great Ones, Perfect Beyond Learning, Utter no Words of Teaching
Subhuti, what do you think? Has the Tathagata attained the Consummation of Incomparable Enlightenment? Has the Tathagata a teaching to enunciate?
Subhuti answered: As I understand Buddha's meaning there is no formulation of truth called Consummation of Incomparable Enlightenment. Moreover, the Tathagata has no formulated teaching to enunciate. Wherefore? Because the Tathagata has said that truth is uncontainable and inexpressible. It neither is nor is it not. Thus it is that this unformulated Principle is the foundation of the different systems of all the sages.

...and the Heart Sutra:

http://www.worldzen.org/sutras01.html

O Sariputra, form is no other than emptiness,
Emptiness no other than form.
Form is emptiness, emptiness form.
The same is true of feeling, thought, impulse and consciousness.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 01:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks so much for those two responses. I did think the Zen aspect to Cage's thought was important, even though I barely understand that in turn. And the 'structure is necessary but ultimately fleeting and incomplete' idea sounds brilliant, though I would like to hear it in his own words. I see what you mean about the subtlety of the concept of nothingness.

sol, Tuesday, 29 June 2004 06:08 (twenty-one years ago)

The easiest way to do absolutely nothing is to spend time on ILX. You can wake up to find that weeks, even months have gone by, and you have nothing to show for it.

I think that Suzy brings up a completely different point - there's a big difference between "people who do nothing" and "people who have the leisure to be able to work for free". I don't know; in my experience, I find the former far more objectionable. It doesn't seem fair if you have to compete with the latter, but you know, that's the genetic lottery. Some people were lucky enough to be born with rich parents, some people were lucky enough to be born with brains. If you have brains, you can *choose* what field you work in, and you can either choose to work in a field where brains are more important than the ability to intern without a paycheck, or you can carry on scraping by and complaining about the unfairness of the world.

But, anyway, I don't want to derail the thread. The weird thing is, on this sort of front, I actually appreciate Joe and his principals, even though they function in inverse in practice. Joe insists on getting paid for his exhibitions, and he insists on getting paid a fair rate so he doesn't lose money. Thing is, lots of "starving artists" don't have the leisure to call the bluff that he does - they have to accept an insultingly small fee because they can't not work. Joe says that by enforcing this policy, he is ensuring that other artists will be treated by the same policy. I'm not sure about that; there's a part of me that thinks, well, that fee went to Joe and now it won't go to a "starving artist" - but then again, realisticly, that money wouldn't have gone to an artist, it would have gone to some trendy gallery schmuck. I don't know.

He wants to be me (kate), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 06:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I've suffered somewhat for the principle of never having permitted myself to work for free after graduation. Why should my parents - or anyone else's, for that matter - subsidise the administrative costs of some media conglomerate (which is where you'd file the 'work experience' grads) or be used to allow a window in the budget for yet more 'flowers for the model'? -- suzy

I know what suzy means, but working for free doesn't necessarily fall into any of these categories, and the idea that parents subsidize it is a big assumption. Since graduation I've written I guess three articles for free, and a couple for a token sum -- but none of these were for the mainstream media.
I don't think the film mag Vert1go pays *any* of its contributors, since it barely scrapes along. No mainstream mag would run the kind of articles you get in it. But I did it on my own time and get zero from my parents, it was more or less for the craic. Given the immensely exploitative nature of most media gigs, principles are for the rich -- notoriously, left-leaning publications hardly pay.
Obv I wouldn't work for a profit-making organization for free, though.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 07:43 (twenty-one years ago)

oh for fuck's sake

Vic (Vic), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 08:52 (twenty-one years ago)

%#@#$#$%$$%^ this thread is great but also makes me want to cry out of long-buried frustration

Vic (Vic), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 08:53 (twenty-one years ago)

There are some things I do which I class as 'work' but don't get paid for. Organisations that can afford to pay me usually do, and I expect them to.

Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 08:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I have an ex-friend who just graduated from the same "prestigious" film-school that I did at the end of 2002. He is the only scion of a famous fx guru, a big name in the television industry - so big and well-connected in that particular circle (i forget how many emmys adorned the fireplace ledge, either four or five) that the son need not work for a living, probably unless and until he flounders his inheritance away...

He moved home now to "write" and "think things over." He plays in or two half-assed, emo-cringey bands; writes screenplays in which the hero suspiciously always is a scrawny overhaired indie "hero" who looks uncannily like him and winds up romancing the same exact bespectacled emo-geek-girl that he was rendezvousing with (in his dreams) that semester (down to the details that she chooses him over her rawk-star b/f). His father financed the short he shot last summer, managed to get it professionally edited, etc. He only has to ask to become a part of his father's television kingdom, and it will be handed to him, just like he had to only ask to get the second iMac laptop he only wanted for the new editing software he bought with his credit card after he crashed his car and got a new one last spring etc etc. Ask and it shall be given....

His best friend is the son of a prominent EnBeeCee producer, also from my class (and another ex-friend), who's father is helping him set-up his own production company, fully financing it and whatnot. Oh, btw, the ex-friendship part has nothing to do with any of this (that's related to pre-graduation drama!).

Am i a trustfarian/trustfundista too? I'd want to know what Suzy/Enrique think, etc. After I graduated I worked a shit job for two months, which managed to pay my rent, but then went through horrid relationship drama, was being supported by various foax at home - if not one, than the other, and spent all of my time and energy for three months on a relationship/correspondence/writing "issue" (that turned out to be 184 pages or so in Word, the culmination of 5 years in a relationship gone to fucking pieces) - does that qualify as "nothing" (probably fodder for another thread)? I'd like to think I was "spending time on intense suffering which was necessary for mental reconstitution in P-BS [post-betrayal state] " at the time, but that may be the inner drama queen in me whining (I was ILXing profusely at the time, a not-unconnected happenstance i fear).

Then I spent a month or so applying again, before starting yes an "internship." An internship at a small cozy production company, I was repeatedly told that would be necessary to "get my foot in the door" in the industry I wanted to work in someday (someday SOON). I spent three months there. I tried telling my family every other day that yes yes now I am going to be hired etc, that this is the way "the system works," " the INDUSTRY works" etc.

There were "no job offerings," recently (like, Thursday), the guy I am friends with at the company let me know that they purposely want to choose interns from out of town, since "then they can't go anywhere and we can make them our slave," - it slipped out, before he remembered that I had been the intern last year. Not that I hadn't already figured out by last Thursday that they never had any intention to hire me in the first place! That's the way the industry works, (exploits, sustains itself), etc. Duh, okay, alright.

After that I spent three more months applying to jobs, every single day (and "wasting" time on a certain internet message board on which I hardly ever really corresponded with the other members guesswhichone, etc it was pretty miserable!) - I sent out more than three hundred fifty resumes, went on twenty-nine interviews, kept trying to procure temp employment (even interviewing at hot dog stands - which i was apparently unqualified to work at). If someone wanted to ask what I was doing, I felt like saying "I'm a professional interviewee" -> the real answer would be more like professionally consuming myself with anxiety. I was still being supported bu my family at age twenty-three (which is VERY "shameful" for an "ASIAN CHILD" coming from a family with such "HIGH STANDARDS" of "OVER-ACHIEVEMENT-YOUR-SOS-AND-SO-WAS-A-SALUTATORIAN-WHAT-THE-FUCK-ARE-YOU-HOW-WERE-YOU-BORN-HERE" etc etc) and hated myself/world/"the INDUSTRY"/ my-apparent-lack-of-breasts-which-would-propell-my-professional-plans for it. Was I a "trustfarian" ? I remember asking, after seeing the issue being debated on a certain ilxor thread.

Then I got a job at a faux-management company which lasted four months, during which time a close relative began to die, which made it easier for family members to take pity enough on me to bail me out when the job ended and I needed rent $ again. And just last week I found a job which is walking-distance away (a big deal if the gas you need is 2.69 a gallon), in which I will temporarily be able to support myself - if I work 50 hours a week, which I somewhat intend to! - while commencing the interviewing (for "something better") again. Make no mistake though, the mark of self-loathing due to having to accept any amount of $, if only for a small amount of time relatively speaking (one year or so) from home has already been made, since I can't help feeling guilt/anger/failure etc etc after it was instilled in me at a small age that "not having a job " = "shame" = "what is the WORLD going to think of us, the poor hapless parents of a nondoctor / ne'er-do-well u poxy fule!" etc which admittedly has to do with an AZN/immigrant mindset (survivalist vs. thrivalist).

So basically, even though I have received some $ from home in between working waste-of-time jobs/slave-labor-4-free for the past calendrical year, i still do not feel like I have been "doing nothing." Whether or not I am a trustfarian I'll let the denizens of this thread decide, being fully aware that it's in no way being used as a pejorative here, and that this overlong post's pre-emptive defensiveness more has to do with the fact that it's 3:33 AM here and not something anyone else said or didn't say (in regards to doing nothing!)!! Yeah yeah, struck a personal nerve, et al.

DO I RESENT THE EX-FRIENDS I described up there though? Honestly?

No. Not really - if I had to be honest with myself...

Because I know that if i was in their position, I would be doing the same thing (the same nothing?) . In some industries, it's almost essential to have the luxury of good-connections which enable you a period to "do nothing," in which you'll (hopefully, if you have any self-discipline) eventually produce something.

This doesn't answer the question of the free-labor/slave-internship thing though, forwhich I'm afraid I have no answer. At least I got a free trip to Vegas out of all that shit (but i'm not supposed to think of that, since then i remember all the grocery $ in gambling there that I lost that i'd been saving all that time).

Okay I have to go to bed now to get up in time for the 11-hour day ahead of me - which I still prefer to sitting at home and ILXing, to be honest w/ you. =) TS: one form of nothing vs another ?

V!c (Vic), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 09:45 (twenty-one years ago)

[[[[[[also, large-scale question but; why don't materialistic western societies allow an option for either -disgruntled-or-inspired-or-rarely-both-see-mention-of-its-siddhartha-buddha-above individuals to effectively "do nothing" but still serve some sort of er, for lack of better words, professional-philiosophical roles in the culture at large...ie, some sort of an equivalent to the ascetics or spiritual-seekers of other eras (weren't some of those sects ideologically fueled by a desire to "do nothing" externally whie still actively seeking some sort of reality internally??) ? Maybe because these ppl would come close to being professional diletantes/artist-Momuses in their times and/or come "close" (more like actually inhabit) {to} the roles of fake medicants who use all their daytime begging $ on nighttime whiskey when no one is looking (as we can see many places firsthand) ...or maybe just because, right, they're mat. western socieities and this is antithetical to their very definition of cultural usefulness and productivity]]]]]]

Vic (Vic), Tuesday, 29 June 2004 10:03 (twenty-one years ago)

eighteen years pass...

while searching for either a "people who are not john larroquette" thread*, or, failing that, a "people who look like other people" thread, i came across this oldie but a goodie thread instead.

there are so many interesting things about this thread. in no particular order:

what people mean by "doing nothing". for some it is an embarrassment, for others it's the goal. a temporary state, or the default. a trust funded period of hedonism or a financial disaster, knowing one must walk the line. a guided rope back to family who have money, a tightrope over angry piranhas waiting to get you.

i liked this comment by nabisco (unsurprising):

I mean, it's funny: the whole appeal of being, say, a successful writer is that you get to have a job, technically, but in point of fact you're doing exactly what you'd be doing if you were doing "nothing" (i.e., writing and not really being able to pay your bills).

this aligns very closely with my own experience of "doing nothing", which i've been doing for about 15 months now. my version is on the self-funded / financial disaster part of the spectrum. my form of doing nothing is about working on the things that i care about, creatively. if i can ever make the amount of money that it takes to live, i will have succeeded in making "nothing" my job. at that point i will point to the sky like albert pujols after crossing the plate after a home run, and say "nabisco otm".

it almost seems like there are two axes of doing nothing? the financial (poverty vs trust fund) and the motive (using all the free time to achieve a goal vs resting/recharging)? maybe there's also a third (takes giant bong rip) -- time. the length of time doing nothing. an argument against including time is that it's partly a function of the financial situation. my time is almost up.

jerry the nipper was heavily otm here:

Doing nothing is fine providing you have plenty of friends to do nothing with.
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, June 28, 2004

*
https://i.imgur.com/ExbP1vX.jpg
Ali Sardar Jafri / not John Larroquette

Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 16 August 2022 17:00 (three years ago)

there are quite a few posts on this thread from ilxors are still around! i would love to hear from some of those people, if anyone wants to share, about how they feel about doing nothing these days.

Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 16 August 2022 17:02 (three years ago)

"I tend to goof off watching tv and the internet for days at a time, when I could be drumming up new business that would put me in higher cotton."

That's a very good point. A few years before this thread began I worked as a freelance writer - before getting a full-time writing job - and the actual writing was great fun. However as a freelancer I had to continually sell myself, and it was a lot easier to do that if you live in London, or the regional equivalent of London. And that's not cheap.

Besides which the idea of doing nothing makes me feel uncomfortable, not because I'm a puritan but because life is like the conveyor belt at the end of Toy Story 3. If you stop moving you'll meet a sticky end. You'll end up like Chance the Gardener from Being There, but in real life. In real life he wouldn't have ended up as a potential presidential candidate, he would have been dumped by a bus stop and used as a public urinal by drunks. As an idler you'll eventually have an unexpected bill that you can't pay, or your parents will die, or an unknown unknown will get you. There's a phrase for that kind of thing, isn't there? The Red Queen hypothesis, or something. The idea that if you don't go on the offensive you'll be overwhelmed by people who do.

Money is an insulator against the world's ills. But money is ablative, it burns away. That's why I have always had a certain amount of respect for posh rich people of the old school. They managed to preserve money across generations. One of their idiot offspring could so easily have fucked it up, or they could have been unlucky, as in e.g. Luchino Visconti's The Leopard. I suppose that above a certain level of wealth it takes genuine effort to screw things up, but that's a lot of wealth.

I'm suddenly reminded of an article I read in The Guardian a while back. It was a "gosh how lucky I have been" piece from one of the columnists who revealed that she had interned for Vogue in New York, before deciding on a whim to move to London and find a job writing for a major national newspaper. The "what a charmed life I have led" narrative was undercut by the fact that she obviously had a tonne of cash. Until this moment I assumed it was by Hadley Freeman, but she points out that she didn't intern for Vogue:
https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2017/nov/18/exclusive-fashion-world-new-vogue-change

"When I was 22 I got my dream job offer: to work as an assistant at a major American fashion magazine. I was going to be independent and, I sang to myself, working with the most creative people in the world. And then I met my prospective boss. “So your annual salary will be $17,000 (£13,000),” she said breezily. The average salary in New York at that point was just under $50,000 (£38,000).
“I - I don’t know if I can live in the city on that,” I said. “Most of our staff,” she said, looking up at me, “have private incomes.” I left her office sadder, wiser and unemployed."

And yet according to this article she graduated from Oxford and moved to Paris for a year before returning to the UK to walk into a job in The Guardian, so how did she end up in New York? And why the fuck am I cyber-stalking Hadley Freeman? She was one of the few columnists on that newspaper who was any good.

Ashley Pomeroy, Tuesday, 16 August 2022 20:30 (three years ago)

hard disagree

Left, Tuesday, 16 August 2022 20:31 (three years ago)

I had a nice run during the Great Recession, 2008-2010 or so... unemployment insurance, hanging out, drinking beer all day

A bunch of buddies were also unemployed so we did nothing together

Andy the Grasshopper, Tuesday, 16 August 2022 21:32 (three years ago)

I kind of partly have this in that I frequently end up doing nothing outside work hour at the moment.

I seem to have no energy for anything other than compulsively reading news media online, watching tv series, and listening to music. With a long walk usually thrown into the mix at weekends.

It’s really frustrating as I’d like to do more - but I always seem to fall back to a default position of doing nothing after work.

Luna Schlosser, Tuesday, 16 August 2022 22:01 (three years ago)

I don't work and yet I'm always "doing something" and also my life is much more stressed and paradoxically slightly less precarious (but I'm not getting too carried away here) than when I used to slog hard and was frequently doing 60 hour weeks to make some parasite richer. Mainly because now I'm consistently poor rather than dealing with the boom or bust cycles at shitty little companies as a worker, particularly as experienced post 2008. But I couldn't be happier that I'm a "non-productive" member of society, mainly because I despise rich people and... yeah I think that's about it!

calzino, Tuesday, 16 August 2022 22:23 (three years ago)

That's why I have always had a certain amount of respect for posh rich people of the old school. They managed to preserve money across generations.


Seems a bit of an odd view. Their ancestors managed to preserve the money by sitting on substantial assets, outsourcing money management to advisors/bankers, or dubious areas of long-standing rentier capitalism. If all else fails, flog a few heirloom paintings or documents to the state in place of inheritance tax/death duties etc.

Luna Schlosser, Wednesday, 17 August 2022 09:22 (three years ago)

I'm like Luna, outside of work I do nothing at all but play video games and watch stuff online. I used to bike ride, paint and draw but now don't have the energy or will for any of that.

Ste, Wednesday, 17 August 2022 11:21 (three years ago)

was made redundant 2 weeks before my 50th birthday in jan' 2018.
out of choice, i have not worked since.
due to my wifes death 10 years ago, i get a small private pension from her (less than the uk state pension),
and cos we had life insurance the mortgage got written off as soon as her cancer was terminal.
i hated every job i have had (bar the last one at which i was at for 14 years),
and the idea of trying to find another job stressed me out to panic attack levels.
financially it's not the easiest of options, but for my mental wellbeing, it has been the best decision ever.
also, it meant i was able to be a full time dad for mk2 until he buggered off to university
i.e. make the most of the end of my full on time as dad which became rather important during the first lockdown.
i can easily fill a day with : chores (house/garden), local walk + charity shops, music, re-reading old comics, and tv/films.

mark e, Wednesday, 17 August 2022 11:31 (three years ago)

some of my worst nightmares are all usually work related. I keep dreaming I'm trying to do my old job that I haven't done in a decade and no matter how hard I try, I can't do it anymore and it feels like the ultimate humiliation!

calzino, Wednesday, 17 August 2022 11:37 (three years ago)

Heh. Anyway working's a mug's game, fuck it. I'd retire tomorrow if I could afford it. Which I can't.

Buckfast At Tiffany's (Tom D.), Wednesday, 17 August 2022 11:48 (three years ago)

i never minded the actual job (s/w support/qa testing etc).
it was all the crap that went with it : the never ending meetings, the office politics, the f*cking corporate doublespeak, the 360 degree performance reviews etc.
that said, i was lucky at my last job as after my wife died they were very accommodating.
i worked 3 days part time, and was allowed unpaid school holidays leave to look after the kids.
the idea of starting afresh in a full time role as the new boy aged 50 filled me with The Fear.
once i made the decision to call it quits it felt like a massive weight had been lifted off my shoulders.
i had a planned budget to get me through to state pension age, but this last 12 months have shot my plan to bits.
thankfully i live a very small life without any expensive treats (other than trying to keep the old car on the road!).
but for the time being i aint being dragged back into the rat race.
i have loved the fun in the last couple of weeks where i have been blamed for the staff shortages across every industry.
all of us 50+ folks who have just told corporates to f*ck off are clearly the cause of inflation etc

mark e, Wednesday, 17 August 2022 11:54 (three years ago)

my year and a half of furlough during the pandemic was the greatest period of my adult life. no work, no irl interactions with anybody. just played golf by myself if the weather was okay. stayed in and watched TV/played FIFA if it wasn't. I had never been happier.

oscar bravo, Wednesday, 17 August 2022 19:32 (three years ago)


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