A new list to rip to shreds: Maxim's 30 Worst Albums of all Time.

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Roll up yer sleeves...its time to wallow into this mess...

RE: Maxim's 30 worst albums of all time! From: Lieberman, Neil (Neil.Lieberman@Aspect.com) Date: Thu Apr 13 2000 - 09:05:33 PDT

30. Milli Vanilli - All For Nothing ... "You know who's Rob, who's Fab, and which one's dead" 29. Bruce Willis - The Return of Bruno ... "When you get high you think you're black" 28. Michael Jackson - HIStory ... "Go away" 27. Jewel - Spirit ... "You will say or do anything to get laid" 26. Pearl Jam - Vitalogy ... "I said no foam on that latte, zit-face" 25. Barbara Streisand - Soundtrack to Yentl ... "You have a keenly developed sense of irony. But you're a dick" 24. Vanilla Ice - Hard to Swallow ... "Wow, what does a penis taste like" 23. Jesse Camp - Jesse & the 8th Street Kidz ... "Dad wants the credit card back" 22. Poison - Look What the Cat Dragged In ... "Table six needs more rolls" 21. The Notorious Big - Born Again ... "What's it like being on Shasta McNasty" 20. Bon Jovi - Blaze of Glory ... "Um, why are you wearing chaps" 19. Regis Philgin - It's Time for Regis! ... "Shh! QVC's doing a special on Beanie Babies" 18. Huey Lewis & the News - Fore ... "How's that oat bran working for ya" 17. Oasis - every single album ... "Just what the hell is a champagne supernova"? 16. David Hasselhoff - Hooked on a Feeling ... "Mom, what are you doing reading this?" 15. Various Artists - If I Were a Carpenter ... "The dickey's looking sharp, my man!" 14. Rolling Stones - Emotional Rescue ... "Oh, there you are! We've been looking for you." 13. Ace of Base - The Sign ... "You can pronounce the names of your Ikea furniture" 12. Bob Dylan - Self Portrait ... "Psst! You holding, man?" 11. Ricky Martin - Ricky Martin ... "We have some shocking news for you about Peter Allen" 10. Hanson - Middle of Nowhere ... "You should have trashed those jpegs before the feds seized your hard drive" 9. TIE: Debbie Gibson - Electric Youth / Tiffany - Hold on Old Friend's Hand ... "You own a bedazzler and think acid wash is coming back" 8. Air Supply - The Definitive Collection ... "Guys like you get reamed in prison" 7. Leonard Nimoy - Highly Illogical ... "You feud with relative over which was better -- the original series or Next Generation" 6. Yoko Ono - Onobox ... "Jack Kevorkian would like a word with you" 5. REM - Monster ... "You mime the Everybody Hurts video" 4. Michael Flatley - Lord of the Dance ... "Your workmen's comp claim was denied after that nude somersault into a Saint Patrick's Day parade" 3. The Osmonds - Osmond Family Christmas Album ... "You've finally met your Mormon bride" 2. Yanni and John Tesh - The Endless Dream ... "Terrible, terrible things will soon happen to you...worse than Hitler" 1. Soundtrack of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band ... "Nobody will ever love you....We'll get you back Australia"

also.... The worst hair in rock and roll...

Most notable: Michael Score of the Flock of Seagulls: Now bald. Justice is served.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:17 (twenty years ago) link

Here's the original article, in case anyone wants to read it.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:25 (twenty years ago) link

Targets are all too easy. Yawn. And, for that matter, what the fuck does Maxim know about anything other than penis-lengtheners and hair-replacement products anyway?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:26 (twenty years ago) link

ok onobox is brilliant.
i also really loved the if i was a carpenters album

― anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:27 (twenty years ago) link

I was just about to listen to 'Emotional Rescue', and now I will.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:27 (twenty years ago) link

Good point. Emotional Rescue is great, if not for the title track and "Where the Boys Go" alone.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:29 (twenty years ago) link

''Targets are all too easy. Yawn. And, for that matter, what the fuck does Maxim know about anything other than penis-lengtheners and hair-replacement products anyway?''

alex- you always pick on easy targets.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:35 (twenty years ago) link

Like yourself?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:39 (twenty years ago) link

i only pick on crap like killing joke.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:45 (twenty years ago) link

I think Vitalogy is the best pearl jam album. Prefer it to Ten and VS by a long way.

― richy, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:46 (twenty years ago) link

(*steps in between Alex in Julio*)
Yo yo yo yo...put your tools back in yer holsters. This is a peaceful thread.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:46 (twenty years ago) link

What exactly is your problem, Julio? You seem to go for the jugular more than I do! You got something you want to say?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:48 (twenty years ago) link

say with email or with flowers. No bloodshed in my thread.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:49 (twenty years ago) link

one of the weird things abt the reviewers etc in "trend-setting fashion mags" is that they take their lead so slavishly from the mainstream rock press, ie (on the whole) geeky boys they wd mock totally in re dress sense blah blah

i admit i noticed this mainly when reading eg uk cosmo etc (i've never read maxim in my life, and stopped reading the uk himbo mags when FHM/loaded appeared) but this unexpected inferiority complex seems universal: if for example uk elle aggressively backed music which went WITH its overall ideology-look-attitude that wd be (potentially) interesting and useful, but instead it timidly follows the hem hem rockist consensus

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:50 (twenty years ago) link

(i don't mean mags like the face, which in the 90s in the uk wz possibly one of the BEST places to read abt music)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:52 (twenty years ago) link

that bruce willis album is diabolical

― robin (robin), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:56 (twenty years ago) link

but Mark, what about Nick Hornby? *ducks*

― dave q, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:56 (twenty years ago) link

that bruce willis album is diabolical
I, too, can vouch for the inexplicable horribleness of "Return of Bruno".
Eight bucks wasted.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:04 (twenty years ago) link

(also Mark the presence of 'Onobox' seems like a wink at their 'real' constituency, who haven't heard it either)

― dave q, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:10 (twenty years ago) link

(of course they wouldn't like it even if they did but that's not the point - or is it?)

― dave q, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:11 (twenty years ago) link

I thought the ladmags were geekmags?

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:12 (twenty years ago) link

similar amount of damaged ideas about sexual identity, only a different focus on the "men's health" side of things.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:25 (twenty years ago) link

Did anyone actually bother reading this whole article? Holy crap. Is Maxim really all bad dick jokes? Like, is that the substance of the magazine? Bad Dick Joke Monthly? I never want to read another magazine again.

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:25 (twenty years ago) link

pre-1998 Details > current Details > FHM > Maxim

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:27 (twenty years ago) link

''What exactly is your problem, Julio? You seem to go for the jugular more than I do! You got something you want to say?''

not really, just JOKING around as usual do u see blah blah...

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:28 (twenty years ago) link

(Right on Alex, plus "All About You")

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:30 (twenty years ago) link

Richy said exactly what I was going to. I find Vitalogy to be Pearl Jam's most exciting, interesting, creative, and emotionally jam-packed album, a waaaay more mature album than Ten.

Otherwise, like Alex said, these are all quite easy targets. I mean, c'mon, who's gonna jump to the defense of a Yanni/John Tesh album or a Leonard friggin Nimoy album? Sheesh.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:33 (twenty years ago) link

This list is seriously all about flattering its readers. Like, "I don't own a single one of these albums! I guess I'm not a fag! Yes!" This is worse than those fucking commercials for Maxim hair dye. Seriously, the knowledge that this thing exists is fucking up my morning.

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:41 (twenty years ago) link

I need to stop using the word "seriously" so often.

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:42 (twenty years ago) link

I think "Vs" is twice as exciting, interesting, creative, and emotionally jam-packed as either Ten or Vitalogy. Vitalogy also has a problem with the song quality half-lifing through the album. It starts out great but each song (after the third track) is half as good as the one before it. And it gets diabolically shitty by the end.

and they spent months hyping "Yellow Ledbetter" and then they DIDN'T put it on the friggin' record! What was up with THAT!

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:49 (twenty years ago) link

i actually found a few of the blurbs offensive-funny. the carpenters one in particular. (haha is the writing better/worse than vice? tighter for sure i think).

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 12:54 (twenty years ago) link

That Debbie Gibson album is great, "Over The Wall" in particular. Anthony's right about the Carpenters tribute album too - Babes In Toyland's cover of "Calling Occupants" is truly classic.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 13:09 (twenty years ago) link

hell with debbie gibson (which yeah is great and had hit songs too.. so there!) the tiffany has one of my fav. broken-heart songs of all time -- "we're both thinking of her tonight" (shit i shoulda put it on my breakup tape).

blurbs still are sorta fun tho.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 13:57 (twenty years ago) link

Yentl??? They didn't like Yentl?
O Maxim, I thought I knew you, but now it seems I really don't and maybe never did.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:01 (twenty years ago) link

The Carpenters tribute 's pretty cool overall, methinks.
And there's a coupla more problematic picks on that "worst of all time" list ('HIStory', after all, is partly a comp=not entirely bad; and instead of 'Monster', there should rather be 'Reveal').

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:02 (twenty years ago) link

the only ones that make sense are the ones that were ubiqitous enough to seem worse than they are. stuff like onobox is just anti-intellectual nonsense. and i don't even like yoko ono's music very much.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:11 (twenty years ago) link

Otherwise, like Alex said, these are all quite easy targets. I mean, c'mon, who's gonna jump to the defense of a Yanni/John Tesh album or a Leonard friggin Nimoy album? Sheesh.

Well, not this Nimoy album anyway. But The Touch of Leonard Nimoy is absolutely sublime. His version of "I Think It's Going to Rain Today," makes me cry. That does not diminish your point, however. This list ranges from easy targets to just plain nonsense. You think anyone on the staff of Maxim has ever even listened to Onobox? Or is it just funny and cool to dismiss Yoko Ono's entire career by sticking her collected works on some idiotic "worst of" list? (To be fair, I've never read Maxim. But I'm pretty sure it sucks.)

If I Were a Carpenter is terrific, and includes my favorite Sonic Youth song ever -- "Superstar." And plenty of other records on here are just fine.

The whole damned list is a pretty easy target.

― Salmon Pink (Salmon Pink), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:11 (twenty years ago) link

I'm sure a lot of these records are rubbish. But the question is - are they worse than the records that would be on MAXIM's Best 30 Records list?

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:13 (twenty years ago) link

A bad record is fine, but in order for you to have a legit claim to hating a record, you have to be forced to listen to it, otherwise, what the fuck is your problem? Are you CHOOSING to listen to this crap?

To me, hating music is a non-starter.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:13 (twenty years ago) link

i do like the idea of EVERY maxim reader taking there oasis collection down to the second hand shop thinking "bbbbut i thought you liked them"

― james (james), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:26 (twenty years ago) link

"who's gonna jump to the defense of a...Leonard friggin Nimoy album?"

I don't know if it's on that album, but that Bilbo Baggins song is off the hook.

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:27 (twenty years ago) link

I don't know if it's on that album, but that Bilbo Baggins song is off the hook.

(Fulfilling my duty as token white guy 'round here:) Fo' shizzle my Nimoyizzle

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:32 (twenty years ago) link

i prefer yield to vitalogy.
And who the fuck are they to take shots at ace of base? I guarantee you at least 40% of their readership turns the radio up whenever they hear "don't turn around" or "all that she wants" (when noone else is around). i know i do (regardless of who's around).

― Felcher (Felcher), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:45 (twenty years ago) link

Mmm, Swedish Reggae.

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:49 (twenty years ago) link

for reference, the line that makes the If I Were A Carpenter review:

"No, here at Maxim we prefer to remember the late Karen Carpenter just the way she was—on her knees in the kitchen, face-down in the dog food bowl."

anyway i still think lad-mag music reviews (as opposed to hit-pieces) generally have a less rockist and more lifestyle outlook in the u.s., whatever sinkah's impressions of the english ones are.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:52 (twenty years ago) link

i'm talking more elle and cosmo really (which i occasionally read) less loaded or jack or FHM or arena (which i never do)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 14:59 (twenty years ago) link

I am among the 8 or so humans on earth that possess the Jesse Camp record (also a year in the life VHS video that I bought in my first rush-to-romance with eBay a few years ago), and it's not that bad....good power pop NY Dolls sort of stuff, actually has Rick Neilson from Cheap Trick on a couple, if I recall.....Better than the Shaggs.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:12 (twenty years ago) link

These are real good records, if anybody cares:

Michael Jackson - HIStory
Poison - Look What the Cat Dragged In ...
Rolling Stones - Emotional Rescue
Ace of Base - The Sign
Ricky Martin - Ricky Martin ...
Hanson - Middle of Nowhere
Debbie Gibson - Electric Youth /
Tiffany - Hold on Old Friend's Hand

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:19 (twenty years ago) link

And yeah, the Jesse Camp one isn't bad, either. Definitely better than anything by Pearl Jam or Smashing Pumpkins or the Chili Peppers. (Probably better than anything by D Generation after their debut, too. Basically, it's a Hanoi Rocks album, when you get down to it.)

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:22 (twenty years ago) link

yay chuck and sterling win the playground prize!

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link

see also "you cheeky monkeys!"

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link

I own the Ace of Base record. But really, Chuck, are you seriously defending Jesse Camp?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link

I think Chuck has earned the right to say he has decent taste.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link

i used to think chuck had good taste b/c he put "sansho dayu" as one of his favorite movies, but that turned out to be frank kogan.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:26 (twenty years ago) link

nb: i can tell them apart now.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:27 (twenty years ago) link

18. Huey Lewis & the News - Fore ... "How's that oat bran working for ya"

have they never read american psycho?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:27 (twenty years ago) link

With all the crap hitting the airwaves nowadays, how do they dare put Pearl Jam's Vitology as one of the worst albums of all time. My friends Maxim should be killed in the name of all that is righteous.

― Cacaman Flores, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link

1. Soundtrack of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band

If I'm not mistaken, this album has both Aerosmith's take on "Come Together" and Alice Cooper's rendition of "Because," both of which should redeem the album from such a list.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:36 (twenty years ago) link

REM MOSTER? What the fuck. Why? I mean its not a masterpiece, but. This people must be destroyed!

― Cacaman Flores, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:38 (twenty years ago) link

For fucks sake ams. this is so typical ilm. yay we'll tear the list to shreds because it disses on hippie noise and a comp with some indie bands! but we'll agree that 99% of the other stuff are crap but h8 on it anyway because its MAXIM and we're all ABOVE THAT.

grrrrr.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:39 (twenty years ago) link

?!!

is this the american maxim ?
either way somebody tell the twunts that diaz with her
fingernail in her mouth isn't sexi *at all*.

that pic of her twatted coming out of a niteclub
that was sexier.

― piscesboy, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:42 (twenty years ago) link

Anyway the fact that there isn't anything from limp bizkuit, kid rock,
backstreet boys, insync, britney spears, aguilera, makes this list a complete shit.

― Cacaman Flores, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:43 (twenty years ago) link

there is not one record on this list i would listen to - therefore they are not wrong... these sorts of lists are pretty dumb though

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:43 (twenty years ago) link

Anyway the fact that there isn't anything from limp bizkuit, kid rock, backstreet boys, insync, britney spears, aguilera, makes this list a complete shit.

I'm guessing that's because, like Tom said above, this list is all about flattering the magazine's readership.....who invariably own albums by all the "artists" you just mentioned. It's meaningless.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:44 (twenty years ago) link

sterling my comments had nothing to do with the list so i've no idea what particular point you think you just made.

im just wary of chuck's self-congratulatory let's-hyberbolically-enthuse-over-what-we-imagine-others-think-is-utterly-disposable shtick, is all. it's like he's adopted a certain rhetoric for the sake of argument (and i wouldn't argue its usefulness in a certain context) and after he's won the argument he just. won't. stop.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:47 (twenty years ago) link

but we've been here before, i don't think this argument will be resolved. our noses are no doubt both turned up in opposite directions.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:50 (twenty years ago) link

Same ignorant analysis you always make, Amateurist. Not even worth wasting time answering it this time, since you've never listened before and won't start now. Except: I singled out albums I LIKE, dammit. There's no shtick to it, and never was. So fuck you.

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:58 (twenty years ago) link

So if they knew who the Shaggs were - would they be on this list or not on this list?

Same question for Metal Machine Music, The Flowers of Romance, ..

..and Jim Capaldi's "Daughter of the Night" , Elizabeth Barraclough's "Hi", Trickster's "Find the Lady", ..etc...

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:59 (twenty years ago) link

I think Tico Tico's earned the right to make references.

― Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 16:19 (twenty years ago) link

Richard and Karen’s flowery up-with-people optimism

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 16:29 (twenty years ago) link

chuck you never have answered it, which is fine, because i've never phrased it in a diplomatic way. i don't doubt that you like those albums--i like some of them too--but that's not my point. my point is that your opinions seem to be dominated by puckishness and insouciance to the point of tedium. i'll take your insults gladly.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 16:43 (twenty years ago) link

I'm sure the reason most of the above-named boy/girl bands aren't on it is (a) they need the latter for covers and (b) the list is three years old.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 16:49 (twenty years ago) link

For what it's worth, "Everybody Hurts" is on Automatic For the People.

I liked Monster. It is what it is. I traded an old roommated Siamese Dream for it and have never looked back since.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 16:52 (twenty years ago) link

Amateurist, I've answered your stupid accusations four or five times on this board alone. At least once, you were so embarrassed by your own initial whining that you emailed me and apologized, and asked that your comments be eliminated from the board. You seem to know very little about what my opinions ARE, and you seem to have no reading comprehension whatsovever about what I've written. I've explained in specific detail what I like about almost every one of the above records in my writing; there's not a single one of them I like because other people (who write about music or otherwise) DON'T like them. Most of them were actually big hits, which suggests I'm hardly alone in my opinions about them. A couple of them placed in Pazz and Jop; one of them includes a Pazz & Jop number one single; a couple more include top ten Pazz & Jop singles. So there's nothing even especially contrarian about the list. Do you think my list-threads on the albums I've liked so far this year are dominated by puckish insouciance as well? If so, how?? Have you even *seen* them? How much of my writing HAVE you seen? Instead of arguing with my opinions themselves, why do you feel the pathetic need to argue with some imagined *motive* behind my opinions? You have no idea what you're talking about, and whenever we get into these arguments you end up ADMITTING as much. So which one of us "just won't stop," guy?

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:27 (twenty years ago) link

i was embarrassed because the particular accusation i had levelled didn't wash, and i stand by my apology. but as for insouciance...chuck for god's sake you titled your book The Accidental Evolution of Rock'N'Roll: A Misguided Tour Through Popular Music--the puckishness of "misguided" seems self-evident, as does your overall style of blithely asserting (not illustrating) the greatness of records on which there is little consensus, as if through sheer force of iconoclasm (and not actual investigation) you will sunder some kind of canonical appreciation of pop music. the opinions themselves, as discrete entities, don't bother me so much as the overall approach evidenced by them taken together. and yes i'm probably indulging in a bit of caricature (as others have in describing me, and i've reacted with similar vitriol). you're right to suggest my statements are based on an incomplete appreciation of the range of your writing--i've read some of your voice pages, sundry posts on ilx, and a few snatches of your books.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:43 (twenty years ago) link

: ( born again is a great record

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:44 (twenty years ago) link

i should also confess that i strongly dislike your writing style, and i'm probably making the mistake of impugning some fairly "ok" arguments because of that.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:46 (twenty years ago) link

also amateurist surely you can see the necessity (and fun!!) in being self aware of your difft opinion when you happen to like something most rock crit establishment types lamely shit on, stop whining to sterl about how he only digs pink ironically k??

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:46 (twenty years ago) link

er huh? i like pink and don't recall making any such statement.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:48 (twenty years ago) link

amateurist:chuck eddy :: trife:amateurist

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:49 (twenty years ago) link

>>overall style of blithely asserting (not illustrating) the greatness of records on which there is little consensus, as if through sheer force of iconoclasm (and not actual investigation)<<

In what way does my writing NOT illustrate or investigate the greatness of the records I think are great? (Again, have you ever actually READ my two books? I can't think of very many books that contain MORE illustration and investigation in them; I mean, if anything, THAT's what might make them tedious. And I defy you to find a single review I've written that didn't talk in specifics about what makes music good or bad as well; if anything, THAT's my shtick.) And what about the zillions of times I've asserted greatness of records and artists where there IS a consensus? I mean, have you noticed how many positive mentions Dylan, say, gets in my second book?? More than anybody, if I remember right. Sounds like you're saying I should ONLY like artists where there's a consensus. Which would make me an idiot.

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:54 (twenty years ago) link

...and a boring one, at that. And you'd be a big fan, I bet.

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:02 (twenty years ago) link

no chuck youre clearly a smug contrarian for liking poison and ace of base!!! you think youre so 'cool' for disagreeing with maxim, why dont you come down off your ivory tower dude!!!! down into the grey soggy mush of amateuristville >:o

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:07 (twenty years ago) link

really amateurist how is your constant faux-everyman 'i just dont UNDERSTAND!' mode any more of an affectation than playing with rock crit audience preconceptions, youre like the ilm balls out nu garage band, bringing back the rock, dude why do all you pretentious art snobs have to KILL MUSIC with your FAKENESS

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:10 (twenty years ago) link

And how do any of the last three long Voice pieces I've done (White Stripes, Eminem as a dad, Eminem/Kid Rock), or for that matter, the singles column I was writing for a couple years, connect AT ALL to the alleged "approach" you imagine in my writing? Feel free to go to villagevoice.com and search my name if you want; I'm really curious, and the articles are there for you to dissect. But you won't.

>> I can't think of very many books that contain MORE illustration and investigation in them;<<

I meant books about rock music here, by the way; not auto manuals or the Bill James Baseball Abstract or the Bible or whatever.

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:11 (twenty years ago) link

what about those puckish auto manuals that recommend parts for FOREIGN CARS, how insouciant!!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:16 (twenty years ago) link

http://www.sound2cb.com/education/teaching/lmu/lmuono/mario.jpg

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:22 (twenty years ago) link

I can't believe I ever had a problem with Trife! Now I want him to run for president.

― Nicole (Nicole), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:24 (twenty years ago) link

o that was silly, forgive me. i have to finish work up or i'll get in trouble, but suffice to say that chuck's right, i'm basing my judgement on a narrow sliver of his work and i should admit that. so my jibes stand only for his contributions to a number of ilm threads, similar to my jibes in sterling's direction.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:25 (twenty years ago) link

what is that, an electrical vagina?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:26 (twenty years ago) link

for trife:

puckish, a.: Of the nature of or characteristic of Puck; impish, mischievous, capricious. Hence puckishly adv.; puckishness.

insouciance, n.: Carelessness, indifference, unconcern.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:28 (twenty years ago) link

jess if you are ever administered a rorscach test my advice is to lie!

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:29 (twenty years ago) link

amateurist did you make some sort of vow to carry on the indie guilt c/d thread? dont forget to end your wigga tags when you endlessly accuse ilm of pretending to like stuff

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:29 (twenty years ago) link

Jess, you are my favorite person on the entire planet right now.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:29 (twenty years ago) link

it's like the eye of sauron

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:31 (twenty years ago) link

trife you have an uncanny ability to hone in on all of ilm's bugaboos!

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:33 (twenty years ago) link

Can I just mention here that Amateurist's complaint w/r/t Chuck Eddy = my complaint with regard to Chuck Klosterman? (Which I think does turn out to be a different complaint than the one Chuck and Trife are mounting defenses against.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:34 (twenty years ago) link

ilm = a bunch of rutting hobbits

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:35 (twenty years ago) link

That makes it sound better than it really is.

― Nicole (Nicole), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:36 (twenty years ago) link

have they never read american psycho?

They are American Psycho ...

― brian nemtusak (sanlazaro), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:44 (twenty years ago) link

Arguments like this make me want to move to the Highlands, take up the bagpipes, and never listen to pop again.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:46 (twenty years ago) link

Anyway, about this list, I think we need to keep in mind that Maxim for the most part amounts to one long jokey sidebar of cheeky lists illustrated with pictures of tan girls in bras, and as such this is less a "real" list of music and more a collection of jokes the readership's expected to get whether or not they're actually familiar with the records in question -- which is a slightly different thing from "easy targets." The number of people who appreciate jokes about Yoko Ono sucking is about a thousand times larger than the number of people who have ever heard more than ten seconds of Yoko Ono's actual music; making jokes about Regis Philbin and David Hasselhoff is pretty much extra-musical; making jokes about Yanni, Ace of Base, Milli Vanilli, or Debbie Gibson is a tried-and-true knee-jerk. Put them all together with Vanilla Ice and you've got a Leno monologue. It's more interesting, I suppose, where they pick on their own readership's used-bin contributions, like the REM and Pearl Jam, but I don't think there's any point in pretending that this is much more than a convenient piece of sidebar-standup.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:51 (twenty years ago) link

No more hobbit talk you filthy bestialists.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:52 (twenty years ago) link

I'd also guess that the manpower put into assembling the list was one tenth of that put into the picture of the hardbody in the sexy-construction-worker outfit steamrolling a pile of CDs that surely accompanied it.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:53 (twenty years ago) link

Maxim: We are, in one single embodiment, every asshole you have ever met in your entire life. We were the guys who thought quoting Austin Powers was funny... 3 years after the movie came out. We call beers "brewski's," we watch the Super Bowl and laugh hysterically at all of the ads, and after giving a high five, we offer on more "down low" only to pull our hand away and exclaim with joy "too slow!"

This is our literature. We seriously aren't aware of the fact that Leonard Nemoy released an album of hippie songs sung by an alien, and HE knew it was a joke too. We think foreign people totally suck and are gay, especially that European dance crap for pansies, Ace of Bass can totally suck it, give us some Kid Rock baby!

Now excuse us, we have to make room for our new poll, "What's Better, Chicks, Cars, or Brewski's?"

― David Allen, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:43 (twenty years ago) link

David Allen is the Pope of OTM!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:45 (twenty years ago) link

(Sadly / Thankfully) that's a big underestimation of Maxim. Jockiness has reckoned with cool and become a slippery, complicated, and quite a bit sharper beast.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:47 (twenty years ago) link

Jockiness has reckoned with cool and become a slippery,complicated, and quite a bit sharper beast.

.....to you, maybe.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:55 (twenty years ago) link

yeah, take THAT nabisco!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:57 (twenty years ago) link

ha ha alex!!! anyway maxim is ok and sort of cool but pretty much the same thing as ilm now, check their very uncool beatles dicksuck hating on the sgt peppers soundtrack and ono box!! yes maxim surely the worst album of all time would be one that makes the beatles sound bad!! ilm too in compulsive listmaking and the idea that there is 'bad' music, also for every thirty acts mentioned theres two token rap picks corresponding perfectly with the ilm 1/15 hiphop ratio

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:01 (twenty years ago) link

also david allen even though youve obv never read maxim do you hate beer and women?!!?!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:04 (twenty years ago) link

See, the funny thing is, Alex, Nabisco was actually expressing YOUR opinion.

Fucking x-post w/ Jess. I shouldn't bother trying.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:04 (twenty years ago) link

trife you are ~~speaking truth to power!~~ getting annoying

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:20 (twenty years ago) link

I just realized that the remarks after each title on the list are aimed at the reader, "If you own it." That's mean!

― Sam J. (samjeff), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:27 (twenty years ago) link

wow very perceptive you have clearly seen right through my 'schtick' just as you did w sterl and chuck, ok everybody yall can stop talking now amateurist has spoken

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:29 (twenty years ago) link

Trife, do you watch The Man Show a lot? What, don't you like girls on trampolines?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:30 (twenty years ago) link

I'm so glad trife is there to defend poor downtrodden hip-hop, which really is the center of the musical universe and the other 1000 or so genres that exist are not

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:34 (twenty years ago) link

~~headache~~ smile

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:35 (twenty years ago) link

(not directed at you Matos my flower)

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:35 (twenty years ago) link

yes matos and certainly as a critic you can testify it is talked about enough currently and interestingly given its status as the most popular music on earth, and especially not overshadowed by the same twenty or so music crit touchstone classic rock albums

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:37 (twenty years ago) link

I'm glad amateurist is here to define 'real' good taste against insouciant punks like chuck eddy and trife who listen to hip-hop and pop just to give 'honest' (look it up in your dictionary amateurist) people headaches.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:38 (twenty years ago) link

trife - but noone listens to hip-hop (or ace of base) unless they're trying to give amateurist a headache!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:39 (twenty years ago) link

or at least they don't actually think it's good

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:39 (twenty years ago) link

and here we were thinking geir had left us

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:39 (twenty years ago) link

Whew! The dicks are swinging in here today!

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:40 (twenty years ago) link

Someone buy Blount a a Boeing and send Darni3ll3 the bill!

― Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:42 (twenty years ago) link

i feel like i've occupied a suite in the tower of babel. i've never said anything about disliking hip hop or pop, nor have i ever impugned sterling's or chuck eddy's sincerity in liking this music.

my headaches come precisely from this confusion, from trife's fondness for the red herring, and for blount's eagerness in scarfing said herring up.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:42 (twenty years ago) link

trife, give us a break on this "no one talks about it at ALL" shit, it is talked about a lot, however stupidly (which means a lot of it is) but for Christ's sake you're getting all wound up about a FUCKING JOKE LIST PUBLISHED THREE YEARS AGO IN MAXIM!!!!

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:43 (twenty years ago) link

who's invoking the caps lock matos?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:43 (twenty years ago) link

look amateurist i dont like you either but i dont piss and moan about you posting in every thread you post to, id be glad to ignore you for real!! just stop pulling out the bitchy 'oh its TRIFE again' groans anytime i say anything, and stop telling people theyre only pretending to like music too ok!!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:43 (twenty years ago) link

and trife, I'm hardly defending Amateurist, I'm making fun of YOU for riding the SAME FUCKING HOBBYHORSE over and over again. it's just as tiresome as Amst's.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:44 (twenty years ago) link

amateurist - you've never impugned sterling or chuck eddy's sincerity in liking this music?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:44 (twenty years ago) link

(quietly to matos: what is my hobbyhorse? i'm not even sure what i'm being accused of on this thread.)

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:45 (twenty years ago) link

can you show me three posts you written directed at chuck where you don't impugn the sincerity of his taste?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:45 (twenty years ago) link

Dub-Metal vs. Olde Timey Bicycles

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:46 (twenty years ago) link

i never said no one talks about hiphop but considering how much i would want to read difft perspectives and stuff about it i think its underrepresented which is especially a shame on ilm since it has such a high concentration of writers i like a lot (matos youre one of them!!!) maxim has very little to do with it though i was really offended by the biggie thing since thats one of my fav records and usually maxim likes biggie!!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:46 (twenty years ago) link

blount: no. not at all. it's the manner in which they celebrate it that irks me!

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:46 (twenty years ago) link

I heard ya: you're hobbyhorse is thinking those who don't line up precisely with the norm (as defined by you) are doing it as a fit of insouciant bucking, boyish puckishness, fronting fronting fronting (look that one up too)(maybe not in the OED though)

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:47 (twenty years ago) link

what - specific word choice? show me three posts where you criticise their word choice and not the "stance" itself

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:48 (twenty years ago) link

What's with the snipe-fest? (a) Alex always does that, he's practically an "I'm rubber you're glue" type, and he knows it's funny and sometimes it actually is. (b) Jockiness now has pretensions to sophistication and irony, it's impossible to ignore. (c) Hip-hop is internationally powerful in a huge way but it's a mighty stretch to call it "the most popular music on Earth," at least if you actually count the bits of the Earth where all the people live. (d) Am I the only one who read what Amateurist actually said about Eddy? I don't know enough about Eddy to agree or disagree with it, and I think he might just come across the way Amateurist thinks he does on ILM more so than in his work, but in any case I'm not sure he said what some people are saying he said.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:48 (twenty years ago) link

cuz, no offense, but if you're still saying you've never impugned the sincerity of their tastes then you're more full of shit than you accuse them of being.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:49 (twenty years ago) link

crazy x-posts. i can't prove a negative blount!

i like most of the music sterling and eddy are talking about. well, much of it. i can see 1,000 reasons why they might like it. it's just that it *seems* (perhaps simply to my own paranoid eyes) that they sometimes fail to extricate their like for the music from their desire to make a statement about the value of disposable/etc. Pop Music also that their critiques need to adopt a jocular quality. It strikes me as unduly defensive. but i totally buy that they like the music!

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:49 (twenty years ago) link

amateurist ive asked you this a couple times already but can you really not see the fun in playing with what people think critics will normally say, if you like something that happens to fall outside the crit consensus (and most people do) using your power as a music critic to hoist it against that consensus is a really interesting and joyous way to write about it!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:50 (twenty years ago) link

like, what 'approved' reasons do you have for liking music that are more worthy than chuck or sterlings??

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:51 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not asking you to prove a negative - I'm asking you to show me three posts you've written directed at chuck eddy where you don't impugn the sincerity of his taste.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:52 (twenty years ago) link

if they do what you say they do, which i think is hardly the case usually though i havent read chuck

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:52 (twenty years ago) link

aaahhh! xpost mania 2003!

trife, i hear you, but i still think you're jumping way ahead of things here. talking about how hip-hop is getting fucked over by the usual-suspects classic-rock records seems backwards considering the source of this thread.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:52 (twenty years ago) link

trife: except that railing against a perceived consensus can be a distraction... one can become the shadow of what one is opposing.

and i think chuck denies anyhow that he's doing any railing really so i'm not sure you and him are on the same page. and he may be right, i may be judging his body of work on the evidence of a small and uncharacteristic sample thereof.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:53 (twenty years ago) link

You know all this is stored here fr eternity, right?

― Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:54 (twenty years ago) link

I mean, I can show you three posts I written directed at you where I don't ask you to show me three posts you've written directed at chuck eddy where you don't impugn the sincerity of his taste, so I don't see why it's so difficult, especially if you've never done it. If you've never done it just show me three posts you written directed at chuck eddy. how bout this - show me three where you don't use the word 'schtick'.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:54 (twenty years ago) link

ilm too in compulsive listmaking and the idea that there is 'bad' music,

i seem to remember someone telling me I listen to 'shitty' hip hop. Hmmm, who was that?

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:55 (twenty years ago) link

james as i do not feel that i have ever questioned the sincerity of mr eddy's opinions you can look at any random two posts from me. also i'm confident there are several posts above in which i do not use the word "shtick."

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:56 (twenty years ago) link

yeah, that idea doesn't wash at all--of course there's bad music, what that bad music happens to be depends on who's doing the defining

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:56 (twenty years ago) link

matos if you mean maxim their top choice was picked because it performs sacrilegious covers on the 'perfect' beatles catalogue!! maxim jocks the rolling stones --> clash --> nu garage stance as much as mojo or whatever!! maybe its good because it keeps hiphop from being boring mojo style 'history', nothings worse than 'classic' hiphop crit ie public enemy rakim bdp run dmc etc but i want obsessive track-by-tracks of harlem world still!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:57 (twenty years ago) link

matos - I think trife has a point, in that he notes this list resembles every other rockcrit list, and takes issue with one of the characteristics of said lists ie. a certain degree of, what's the word, "rockism" (don't bother amateurist, it's not in the OED), and that in 2000 (not to mention 2003) this sorta tendency is increasingly indefensible.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:58 (twenty years ago) link

Wow. Take some time off to go do some grocery shopping and this thread takes off! Huzzah! I meant no real disrespect to Nabisco, by the way.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:58 (twenty years ago) link

trife, that's not Sgt Peppers by the Beatles, that's the soundtrack from the movie the Bee-Gees made.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:59 (twenty years ago) link

show me where to look amateurist - cuz I aint' finding nothing but your usual (bippity boppity boo) schtick

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:59 (twenty years ago) link

oops - he knows that

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:59 (twenty years ago) link

also david allen even though youve obv never read maxim do you hate beer and women?!!?!
-- trife (...), July 8th, 2003.

When I went to summer camp, my father sent me Maxim every single week. I still have no clue why, probably to make sure that 4 weeks of being in a small cabin in the middle of nowhere with 10 other guys wouldn't make me gay. So yeah, the stupid "YOU DON'T KNOW ME" style defense doesn't quite fit.

― David Allen, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:00 (twenty years ago) link

hence "check their very uncool beatles dicksuck hating on the sgt peppers soundtrack and ono box!!"

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:00 (twenty years ago) link

never mind me, i can't read

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:00 (twenty years ago) link

the bad music thing was worded wrong, i think writing about 'bad' music or 'worst' albums is only interesting if its something youve engaged in, ie oops im sorry but i love hiphop and ive tried a lot of 'weird' def jux kool keith etc and it sounds really bad to me, the maxim list wouldve been better with more self-hating alt rock/oasis and less streisand/yanni/tesh

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:00 (twenty years ago) link

the thing with these lists is they never actually have the balls to go after anyone who they might need to return their phone calls

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:02 (twenty years ago) link

and dont tell me ilm isnt the arcanists version of maxims 'quality' music taste guide!!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:02 (twenty years ago) link

I mean - ooh, they dissed Yoko Ono - better whatcha back Maxim!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:03 (twenty years ago) link

yeah for real, like the world has really been waiting for someone to stick it to ricky martin!! hes gone critically unscathed for TOO LONG!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:04 (twenty years ago) link

Trife, how is what you're saying about 'ILM' any different from what anyone else says about how this place supposedly has a 'mafia' or whatever controlling it?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:04 (twenty years ago) link

nothing is sacrilegous but the beatles catalogue is pretty fucking amazing and the ost is totally fucking horrible! ("Come Together" and "Got to Get You Into My Life" excepted.) we can be as at the end of history as you want to be--and again, are now more so than than when the list came out, I'll say it again *three years ago*--but why is any of this *surprising* to you?! maxim isn't where you go to be surprised by anything, from the models to the subjects being written about to the critics' tastes. boilerplate boilerplate boilerplate. sure you've got points, and i agree w/them, but it's like, as you almost put it, doing the same w/Mojo.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:05 (twenty years ago) link

trife - have you ever seen blender's (same mag/"brain"trust) lists? cuz they're not the completely staid vh1 usual suspects writ in (rolling) stone type lists (the one I saw at least)

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:05 (twenty years ago) link

i mean, i understand/respect/agree w/much of your passion but it's being mislaid here

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:06 (twenty years ago) link

I can name plenty of albums worse than the Sgt. Pepper's OST (Conor Oberst to thread!)

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:06 (twenty years ago) link

I'm trying to remember if the Alice Cooper number was halfway listenable

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:07 (twenty years ago) link

not the same brain trust outside the publishers, though! whatever my (very real) objections to Blender the people there do know music pretty well and i was genuinely impressed with some of their pix in that 500 essential cds thing they did a bit back (Shakira cover? i forget)--The Kings & QUeens of Township Jive and not Indestructible Beat, interesting and actually sort of right (K&Q is more fun than IB though I love both about equally).

and you will NOT EVER see me defending Conor Oberst so don't even try to pull that card Blount!

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:08 (twenty years ago) link

"Because," James, yes....and I stated as much earlier....but who was listening to me, eh? NO ONE apparently. Same as usual.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:08 (twenty years ago) link

and really, there may be worse records than the ost but how many of 'em do you actually want to hear?

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:09 (twenty years ago) link

so is it, ah, worth taking apart the individual items on the list and whats said about them, or should we stick to sticking it to maxims puckishness?

― gaz (gaz), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:09 (twenty years ago) link

exactly!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:09 (twenty years ago) link

I thought Blender and Maxim had the same braintrust?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:10 (twenty years ago) link

well yeah its not surprising but frankly i do expect a lot more from maxim than mojo!! if you want to talk about a newer use-other-words thing what about the bullshit about biggie putting out more stuff dead than when he was alive, first i dont even think thats technically true unless you count life after death and he was alive for the recording and mastering of that, but even if so is there any famous artist who died in their prime and then their label just like cut off their distribution entirely? this certainly isnt even true for maxims precious beatles!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:10 (twenty years ago) link

fck its hard to keep up here.

― gaz (gaz), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:11 (twenty years ago) link

i think all the invective i earned on this thread is just karma. i was rude and very troll-esque in my first posts to this thread.

i shall henceforth obey thumper's law.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:11 (twenty years ago) link

ha - I spent last night listening to Beatles albums backwards - get outta my head George Martin!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:12 (twenty years ago) link

(trife: FYI, i don't like much Def Jux stuff either. although I Phantom is pretty damn good. but yeah, i prolly listen to some hip hop you would consider shitty--and vice versa, but it's only a portion of the hip hop i listen to)(basically, i think you have a narrow view of what hip hop is/can be)

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:13 (twenty years ago) link

Jeezum. At this rate, this thread might rival the notorious Dave Matthews Band thread!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:15 (twenty years ago) link

yeah again sorry oops i dont even really know what youre into, i like lots of undie stuff so its not about what it can or should be i just usually dont think underground stuff does 'it' well

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:18 (twenty years ago) link

trife if you ever do start djing you gotta play beatles albums backwards - it will go over very well in athens.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:19 (twenty years ago) link

Even more so in Sparta.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:20 (twenty years ago) link

also i was more into undie stuff a few years ago so its probably hating on new jacks syndrome, as recent threads attest i still can feel roots black star etc whereas def jux (except rjd2!!) anticon etc totally repulse me

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:20 (twenty years ago) link

blount i was gonna ask you, on the nyc pics thread you said millar looked and dressed like a friend of yours, did you mean jared? cuz jared doesnt dress like that!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:21 (twenty years ago) link

Emerson Dameron

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:24 (twenty years ago) link

haha!!! he does kinda but jared is blonde and they have the same nose!! i saw emerson at the flagpole awards

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:26 (twenty years ago) link

(three or four years ago my roommate used to think jared was the guy from the dandy warhols?!?!!)

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:27 (twenty years ago) link

don't tell jared that

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:28 (twenty years ago) link

hey! I saw that

― jared or Emerson Dameron or whomever (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:29 (twenty years ago) link

heavens!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:31 (twenty years ago) link

matos thats creepy

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:31 (twenty years ago) link

< /;)>

― Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:31 (twenty years ago) link

i guess you see now i had to call in sick again today!! god i hope tomorrow im better so i can avoid this ilx shit

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:32 (twenty years ago) link

haha

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:32 (twenty years ago) link

big mothafucking ditto!

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:36 (twenty years ago) link

trife have you heard Atmosphere? if so what think?

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:37 (twenty years ago) link

they have (had maybe) it on vinyl at wuxtry!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:39 (twenty years ago) link

haha - becuz of me

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:39 (twenty years ago) link

i have not!!! a while back after i liked that cage song patrin said hed make me a mix of the new underground emo rap stuff but he never did : (

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:41 (twenty years ago) link

cocktease!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:43 (twenty years ago) link

Blount, I do this not because I agree with Amateurist but because you're so keen on mischaracterizing his point. I think he was pretty clear upthread when he said: (a) "it's like he's adopted a certain rhetoric for the sake of argument" and (b) "i don't doubt that you like those albums. . . . my point is that your opinions seem to be dominated by a puckishness and insouciance."

If I may read between the lines a little: I think Amateurist completely believes Chuck likes these albums, and just thinks Chuck acts precious special about that fact, to the point of either getting irritating or ceasing to offer worthwhile content.

If I may read between the lines further: I speculate that any such element of Chuck comes out more strongly on ILM, being that he's a successful music critic and most of us are not and thus he's in a position where one might naturally be expected to be a little puckish and insouciant.

I would also agree with the contention that being puckish and insouciant about such things can be entertaining, if it seems deserved and applied in moderation. I find it a little irritating when Chuck Klosterman does it. In my scant reading of Eddy I have never seen him cross the line enough to bug me with this, but I haven't read enough of his stuff to have much of an informed opinion. I am not, however, mystified by the idea that someone might detect and resent such a tendency.

Does that make more sense, James?

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:45 (twenty years ago) link

but Klosterman see's himself as a missionary/activist! Eddy just goes "I like this record", or, at his most vehement, "oh c'mon, this records better than that record" ie. like nearly EVERY OTHER ROCK CRITIC (some 'contrarian' tactic!). Klosterman's schtick is like nearly every other 'in my day, we had real music, then the world got ruined' only with him 'my day' /= Beatles, Sinatra, pre-countrypolitan Nashville, pre-Dre hip-hop, pre-be-bop Jazz, pre fusion-jazz, or pre-Marsalis Jazz, it = Riki Rachtman.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:55 (twenty years ago) link

ie fanaticism vs. dilletantism maybe

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:55 (twenty years ago) link

Having pondered this thread I've reached two conclusions.

1. Maxim takes on tougher targets than does Alex in NYC or amst (shock! outrage! they named bad bands and didn't go after the backstreet boys -- coz nobodys ever gone against THEM before!! its like everyone's afraid of making fun of current teenpop! they're practically on pedestals with the lips of every rockcrit ever puckered against their ass!) or derogatis.

2. Amst complains when ppl. (me) mention things they like with some reasons (tiffany's we're both thinking of her tonight coz its a great heartbreak song) and don't include dissertations. This is a rockist dbl. standard coz sure i'd love to write a dissertation on Tiffany sometime (i actually wrote one -- or at least an article) but if amst. sez "I love the rolling stones" who's gonna go "dude you have some fucking nerve saying you like them without proving it. its like yr. just trying to upset my critical applecart for no reason you annoyingly puckish scamp." More to the point I've never ONCE seen amst. give any in-depth explanation for his like or dislike of ANY MUSIC EVER.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:57 (twenty years ago) link

trife, get hold of Lucy Ford--easily the best undie record of the past five years or thereabouts; really consistent lyrically, excellent beats too

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:59 (twenty years ago) link

Blount just summed up why I think Klosterman's an A-1 dillweed.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:59 (twenty years ago) link

ie. if amateurist isn't attacking the sincerity of his tastes but rather his 'debate methods' then how is saying ace of base > nirvana radically different than saying nirvana > ace of base (or sgt. pepper's ost > sgt. pepper's)(or nearly every rock 'debate' ever)?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:00 (twenty years ago) link

good lord this thread is a x-post jamboree!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:00 (twenty years ago) link

Blount, I think you're misreading Klosterman a lot. he doesn't hate non-hair-metal by any means, and I've never seen him call that era a golden age that got ruined anywhere, ever.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:01 (twenty years ago) link

what was that ny times thing?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:03 (twenty years ago) link

which one?

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:04 (twenty years ago) link

the 'waah why do critics pretend the ramones mattered more than ratt? fuck this revolution! god save the king (rachtman)!'

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:05 (twenty years ago) link

anyway i was arguing about the relative superiority of tiffany to debbie gibson! since its well established that the "critical consensus" i rail against considers debbie gibson part of the canon and tiffany worthless teen-pop tripe, then i guess that it was just trying to promote controversy from that gibson-lovin tiffany-hatin' buncha rockist losers.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:07 (twenty years ago) link

iirc, though, that's not a golden-age piece, at least not in the "and then it was all ruined" sense you cite above. I thought it was quite a bit overstated but that's not what you're saying.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:08 (twenty years ago) link

Blount OTM. Matos is right in that Klosterman does like other stuff but it's insanely amusing how he sorta backs into it (like at the end of the paperback Fargo Rock City -- 'my favorite albums recently are by Radiohead but I CAN'T LOVE THEM LIKE HAIR METAL YOU DEAF BASTARDS CAN'T YOU HEAR THE GLORY.'

Sterling -- what if you hate (or love) both?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:08 (twenty years ago) link

oh klosterman is the dude who liked ratt more than the ramones!!! i never read his thing but i loved the thread about it

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:10 (twenty years ago) link

Same guy, yeah. And good on him for sticking by his guns, bad on him for not getting that others might disagree...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:11 (twenty years ago) link

another joke crashes on the shoals of ilm literalis... fuck it.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:12 (twenty years ago) link

ned do you hate affirmative action??

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:13 (twenty years ago) link

sterling you're nuts if you think tiffany's better (musically) than deborah gibson!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:14 (twenty years ago) link

I love everything and everyone! I love Sterling for binarism rather than multiplicity!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:14 (twenty years ago) link

but Ned that afterward is more an admission that Radiohead can't mean as much to him because he's not a teenager anymore, not "hair metal are better"

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:16 (twenty years ago) link

the weird thing about tiffany vs. deborah is that deborah's better at dance numbers even though her heart's in ballads and tiffany's better at ballads even though her heart's in dance numbers - cruel, cruel fate!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:16 (twenty years ago) link

tiffany finally gave up dance numbers for ballads and she's the better for it (her heart never WAS in dance numbers i think tho).

i'd say more tiffany was APPRECIATED for dance numbers and deborah for ballads. but deborah hand so little range, a comparatively weak voice, and even her dance-numbers were pretty damn go nowhere. (out of the blue was the first tape i ever bought tho and it has a special place in my heart even if for no other reason.)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:22 (twenty years ago) link

Dunno, Matos, my reading of it -- and I admit I only read it once -- wasn't quite so clear-cut. Klosterman, for me, comes across as ultimately bitter at his worst by saying that 1) there's a rock canon formed without his consent or input and 2) that people can have different interpretations of something that was indeed huge and omnipresent from what he has. There's a lightness in tone -- not necessarily in terms of the meat of his argument but in style and approach -- that is missing which I think would do him good if it were there. If anything I think his writing since Fargo Rock City is worse in this regard -- almost as if he was hoping that his book would somehow turn a tide. Then both the Ramones and Ratt deaths happen and he flips out that writers would want to talk about one more than the other, and spends his time complaining about that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:23 (twenty years ago) link

"shake your love" was not go nowhere!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:25 (twenty years ago) link

Chuck E needs to come in and settle this T-DG thing once and for all

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:29 (twenty years ago) link

I'm pretty sure he's a Tiffany guy

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:30 (twenty years ago) link

being 'contrarian' and all

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:31 (twenty years ago) link

he's a stacy q guy.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:31 (twenty years ago) link

Nu Shooz.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:32 (twenty years ago) link

Liking Debbie more than Tiffany is like liking Michelle Branch more than Avril.

― Nicole (Nicole), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:33 (twenty years ago) link

but that's just crazy-talk!

(isn't shake your love just the chorus over and over and over or am i missing something? i mean granted i love the double-entendre but it only takes you so far. foolish beat was a bit better i recall)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:35 (twenty years ago) link

"shake your love" has a breakitdown-builditbackup big beat would give it's left nut for

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:38 (twenty years ago) link

for the record I like tiffany more than deborah, but "shake your love" is a-ok

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:39 (twenty years ago) link

also, when I was stationed in Iceland there was this Icelandic girl who would come the Marine bar every week on karaoke night and do "Lost In Your Eyes". Very Paths of Glory.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:40 (twenty years ago) link

I did "Pocket of a Clown"

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:41 (twenty years ago) link

Um....Their debut albums are both better than anything they did later?

(Actually, I compare & contrast them plenty in my second book, and it would take me thousands of words to go into here, but I'm going home.)

And I still don't get how "self-congratulatory let's-hyberbolically-enthuse-over-what-we-imagine-others-think-is-utterly-disposable shtick" is not questioning my integrity. But who gives a shit, y'know?

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:45 (twenty years ago) link

Okay: At FIRST I liked Debbie better. (Reviewed her debut album in the Voice.) She's got the *rhythm*. But Tiff's got the Voice. And the personality. And the hair. She's like Rayanne Graff and Tanya Harding and Stevie Nicks rolled into one. So I guess that's my answer.

Actually, I'm a Company B guy.
(But NOT in a boogie-woogie bugle way, I swear.)

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:48 (twenty years ago) link

I remember Spin grilling Deborah about "Shake Your Love"

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:52 (twenty years ago) link

Oh yeah one more thing (and then I'm really going home, I promise.)

I'm also curious where exactly I do this:

>fail to extricate their like for the music from their desire to make a statement about the value of disposable/etc. Pop Music<<

Can you give me examples of where exactly I've made such statements, Amateurist? (Actually, I HATE most disposable pop, if you wanna know.)

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:57 (twenty years ago) link

rockist!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:57 (twenty years ago) link

Aw fuck, I started making your mix but after a sick triple-time Copywrite track and some Atmosphere and a couple of the less-artsy Def Jux things (Murs, Mr. Lif) I sort of ran out of actually good songs that you might like, and really, how interested would you even be in an MF Doom track that constantly changes tempo at semi-random intervals and samples what is either the Beatles' "Glass Onion" or Scooby-Doo incidental music? So I sort of put it aside for the time being thinking "maybe if I sneak in some Bay Area shit from '98 he won't notice" and then a bunch of people were all "hey I want your '72 thing" so blah blah hem haw excuse

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:01 (twenty years ago) link

(Also I dream of a world in which "critical consensus" is very very far down on the list of "why music is interesting", somewhere below "what sort of adapter plugs they use for their microphones")

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:02 (twenty years ago) link

I feel weird setting myself up as Amateurist translator, but Chuck -- and this comes from a pretty much disinterested observer -- he's not saying you're being dishonest, he's saying he gets annoyed by his personal perception that you take pleasure in being the orthodoxy-tweaking scamp to the extent that it interferes with your own ideas. I am not agreeing with this statement, simply explaining it: in your writing that I've read, you've not crossed any such lines to the extent of bothering me.

As for Klosterman, I have not read anything apart from his books, but in the newest (forthcoming?) one, he relies very heavily on the naughty-scamp routine, going so far as to make heavy use of the whole 90s "only a weirdo like me would think this" routine.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:08 (twenty years ago) link

With the benefit of Nabisco's having delicately sorted out my good points from my unfortunate sideswipes, I think I'll try to take on some of the 5,000 posts above, albeit in scattershot fashion.

As for the disposable pop thing, you're right that I don't necessarily have a leg to stand on Chuck (maybe 1/2 of a leg, which isn't of much use), and I think I've already granted that I might be mischaracterizing your overall outlook on the basis of a handful of ILM posts. (I also may be confusing your writing with that of the other Chuck, and perhaps a raft of other VV critics as well.)

To try and explain myself, it seems (from my perspective--which means the threads that I read) that you are most interested in defending stray albums from much-maligned subgenres and artists and although you mention Dylan as being a major focus of your book, I haven't noticed a lot of posts on ILM (again, this may be due to my own myopia) about such consensus figures or for that matter many artists/genres that don't have the potential to raise questions about your credulity. I accept your sincerity, in fact, but it's your seeming choice of focus on precisely that music which raises hackles that begins to annoy me. Your celebration of these things (again, on ILM) seem to employ a po-face quite occasionally, such as (made-up example) "Manowar is better than Motorhead," and it's then left to subsequent posters to fill in the reasons behind this. There's a contrarianism here that--again, on selected ILM posts--seems to overwhelm other impulses and emotions. Of course this is not uncommon in general on message boards. Some ILMers have made virtual careers of such contrarianism (some of them are on this thread).

I employ the device mentioned above (let's call it the "Manowar>Motorhead device") sometimes, although I'm not proud of it. This gets at what Sterling says, that I myself am guilty of that of which I accuse others. I've said so myself numerous times on ILM. My musical literacy is woefully inadequate to the task of writing the sort of music criticism (or music study) I like to read. If it's a truism that we single out others for faults that we find in ourselves, I'm a living illustration. But if I've singled you out for criticism (some of it founded, some of it clearly not) it's because you are a convenient representative of the rock criticism establishment (by which I simply mean a popular and well-read and -entrenched published critic) and as such I hold you to a higher standard--and probably hold you accountable for a whole state of affairs for which you far from wholly to blame. That probably sounds insufferably condescending itself.

The contradiction here is that I should judge you on the stuff you actually get paid for. Which I hope to read more of this weekend and hopefully I will be robbed of my misconceptions or at least more nuanced and sensible in my criticism.

[Put another way: When I write I'm simply one guy, with no professional connection to music, who is often bored at a job he's about to leave and prefers this ragged discourse to the endless dotting of i's and crossing of t's. When you write Chuck, from my POV at least, you're writing in your professional identity.]

I probably haven't addressed all the sundry criticisms I've received on this thread, least of all Sterling's which seem in their definitiveness ("you never say anything at all" etc.) an unfortunate echo of my initial statements (now regretted) about him and Chuck. I should add that I feel bad for personally offending you and impugning your sincerity, although I remain unconvinced of the virtues of your writing style and wary of--I'll say it again, just to see if Trife can get more mileage out of it--your insistent puckishness as I've perceived it on ILM.

As for the members of the peanut gallery, it's actually quite amusing to see you graft a whole host of attributes onto me that aren't evident from my posts (and would seem obv false if you bothered to recall my general contribution to ILX outside of these unfortunate lashings out on criticism threads): rockism, anti-hip hop, whatever. I think the protean nature of this thread (starting in one place, quickly moving to another) encourages this sort of thing so in a sense this is another mea culpa.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:19 (twenty years ago) link

Whoops, clarification: I didn't impugn your sincerity, but I feel bad that I apparently lent the perception that I did.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:22 (twenty years ago) link

ain't no thing but a chicken wing!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:24 (twenty years ago) link

Wait, Blount, is that a conciliatory gesture? Because I'm not sure I'm ready for that just yet.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:26 (twenty years ago) link

Manowar are SO not better than Motorhead....

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:32 (twenty years ago) link

(haha)

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:32 (twenty years ago) link

But that list sure was right about that Milli Vanilli album. It sure is bad. I heard those guys didn't even sing on it.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:39 (twenty years ago) link

man, it not for the scandal, John Leland's Milli Vanilli predictions woulda surely come to pass

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:41 (twenty years ago) link

it woulda been funnier if the list was all Jandek and Shaggs and Langley Schools and other bands that can't play their instruments ho ho ho

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:42 (twenty years ago) link

agreed!

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 00:44 (twenty years ago) link

I wish someone would write a "WORST ALBUMS EVAR" list where every entry either (a) contained at least three glaring factual errors (i.e. "Michael Stipe's bass playing ruins the album") or (b) is about albums that have been out of print for thirty years and therefore can't be easily argued about

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 01:21 (twenty years ago) link

such a headache this thread gives me

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 01:28 (twenty years ago) link

when 900 posts you make to ilm, feel as good you will not

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 01:29 (twenty years ago) link

Tiffany all the way. As fucking if.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 01:34 (twenty years ago) link

Well, you people are are absolutely fascinating. Keep going then.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 02:51 (twenty years ago) link

Nate's idea is really really funny

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 04:15 (twenty years ago) link

''What's with the snipe-fest? (a) Alex always does that, he's practically an "I'm rubber you're glue" type, and he knows it's funny and sometimes it actually is. (b) Jockiness now has pretensions to sophistication and irony, it's impossible to ignore.''

DESTROY ALL JOCKS NOW!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 08:33 (twenty years ago) link

if anyone at maxim actually decided to do that maxim list for a GOOD reason they cd point to this thread with justified pride

*cracks brewski*

*(wonders if "cracks brewski" means what he assumes it means)*

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 09:11 (twenty years ago) link

mark s in learning to be a jock actual shockah!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 09:56 (twenty years ago) link

He was certainly "cracking" the "brewskis" at the FAP!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 10:06 (twenty years ago) link

Good Lord! I leave for 12 hours...and the thread bloats out to 270 posts!
Can somebody sum up what happened while I was gone?
Is Debbie Gibson or Tiffany winning?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 10:43 (twenty years ago) link

Deborah Gibson, and she's losing on the 'taken as a whole' careerist (rockist?) biggerpicture stance though "Shake Your Love" still trumps all.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 11:20 (twenty years ago) link

Debates about T and DG in 2003 are a little sad.

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 19:53 (twenty years ago) link

you're right. let's resume our usual talk about middling also-ran postpunkahs.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 20:39 (twenty years ago) link

*cracks brewski*
*(wonders if "cracks brewski" means what he assumes it means)*

in poland, a widow is made.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 20:43 (twenty years ago) link

so anyway taking sides crispy ambulence vs. was (not was)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 22:04 (twenty years ago) link

The Rubinoos.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 22:05 (twenty years ago) link

I'm pissed Poison is on this, but I'm really glad Oasis is. REALLY glad. For some reason I find the REM inclusion, despite the album's decentness, rather flattering.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 22:53 (twenty years ago) link

aw you guys, taylor dayne wipes the floor with tiffany, debbie g, company b and even alisha

ps isn't the poison 'dis' up top a sly allusion to the dish-washing scene at the outset of the 'nothing but a good time' video? AHA AHA AHA!!!

― maura (maura), Thursday, 10 July 2003 00:29 (twenty years ago) link

ALSO i have a book, dated 1991, called the 50 worst rock & roll records of all time, which i bought off the remaindered table when i was in high school mainly because of its attack on billy joel (high school issues, you know) and here is its 50 worst albums list (WARNING LOTS OF ROCKISM AHEAD):
50 - u2 "the unforgettable fire"
49 - graham parker and the rumour "the parkerilla"
48 - nick lowe "pinker and prouder than previous"
47 - "tony sheridan & the elvis presley tcb band"
46 - scotty moore "the guitar that changed the world"
45 - david bowie "never let me down"
44 - elvis costello & the attractions "goodbye cruel world"
43 - v/a "sgt pepper's lonely heart's club band" soundtrack
42 - "phantom, rocker & slick"
41 - aretha franklin "la diva"
40 - ringo starr "old wave"
39 - ringo starr "stop & smell the roses"
38 - america "america's greatest hits"
37 - reo speedwagon "life as we know it"
36 - joel grey "black sheep boy"
35 - starland vocal band "4x4"
34 - emerson lake & palmer "tarkus"
33 - joey bishop "sings country western"
32 - donovan "greatest hits"
31 - "blood sweat & tears"
30 - bruce willis "the return of bruno"
29 - starship "knee deep in the hoopla"
28 - beach boys "still cruisin"
27 - iron butterfly "live"
26 - bon jovi "slippery when wet"
25 - rolling stones "still life"
24 - the who "who's last"
23 - van dyke parks "song cycle"
22 - roger waters "radio kaos"
21 - bob dylan "live at budokan"
20 - v/a "'70s hits: greatest hits of the decade"
19 - moody blues "days of future passed"
18 - john travolta "travolta fever"
17 - shaggs "shaggs' own thing"
16 - shaggs "philosophy of the world"
15 - "anderson bruford wakeman howe"
14 - queen "live killers"
13 - queen "ii"
12 - "byrds"
11 - jethro tull "aqualung"
10 - yes "tales from topographic oceans"
9 - grateful dead "europe '72"
8 - the doors "alive, she cried"
7 - chicago "at carnegie hall"
6 - milli vanilli "the remix album"
5 - "pat boone"
4 - crosby stills nash young "american dream"
3 - bob dylan "self-portrait"
2 - lou reed "metal machine music"
1 - elvis presley "having fun with elvis on stage"

lots of live albums, yeah. also the worst single according to this book is "my ding-a-ling," but eh, who knows, maybe one day I WILL WIND UP ON THE REMAINDERED TABLE WITH MY BOOK ON WHY er well who knows what i'll be trying to argue

― maura (maura), Thursday, 10 July 2003 00:47 (twenty years ago) link

the inclusion of "Song Cycle" on that list means they at least got one right. what a fucken chore that record was to listen to. couldn't sell it quickly enough

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 10 July 2003 00:51 (twenty years ago) link

yeah and that beach boys record has (shudder) kokomo (shudder)

still it does have a lot of 'you put your peanut butter in my canon!!!!' sentiment throughout

― maura (maura), Thursday, 10 July 2003 00:53 (twenty years ago) link

aw you guys, taylor dayne wipes the floor with tiffany, debbie g, company b and even alisha
Yeah. Whatever happened to Taylor Dayne? She rocked my world.

Also, I've read that book that maura mentions ("Slipped Discs" by Jimmy Gutterman) and, yes, it is quite Rockist in spots (a version of
the 33 1/3 rules
of bad music making is in the intro chapter to the version thats in the local library) but the books complaint about Billy Joel is right on, and does a commendable job of defending its position on why Jimmy Gutterman dislikes the albums on the list above.
(A few complaints are specious, tho. And reading his shpiel on the Bee Gee's soundtrack to the Sgt Pepper Movie made me wanna find the record just to see if it's as horrible as I remember the movie being.)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:00 (twenty years ago) link

still it does have a lot of 'you put your peanut butter in my canon!!!!' sentiment throughout
I blame Iggy Pop, he made such a mess with that family sized container of Jif.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:02 (twenty years ago) link

man, I've been looking for that book for ages. I found the sequel, the 50 Best albums of all time, at a library in Maryland but I've been dying to see that book again (I think I last saw it when it came out, middle school or something).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:04 (twenty years ago) link

taylor dayne is touring this summer and has been making a lot of appearances at dance clubs & pride festivals.

i will go to the massapequa show totally if anyone wants to go!!

― maura (maura), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:05 (twenty years ago) link

(I like Conor Oberst.) ((I will never allow ILM the absolute hatred of Bright Eyes it strives for.))

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:16 (twenty years ago) link

was that apropos of anything?

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:17 (twenty years ago) link

He likes Oberst, and he wanted to shout it from the rooftops.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:28 (twenty years ago) link

dear bnw, i love you too, love conor

http://www.timmcmahan.com/images/lifted5.jpg

p.s. whine whine whine

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:29 (twenty years ago) link

He's just robert smith without makeup.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:35 (twenty years ago) link

Or talent. *flees*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 July 2003 01:42 (twenty years ago) link

Or the build

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 July 2003 02:50 (twenty years ago) link

Maura's list is an absolute goldmine for Scoobyists.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 10 July 2003 14:26 (twenty years ago) link

HAHAHA Milli Vanilli - _The Remix Album_!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 10 July 2003 14:28 (twenty years ago) link

The power of Milli Vanilli was demonstrated in Coney Island recently.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 July 2003 14:32 (twenty years ago) link

scoobyists?

― maura (maura), Thursday, 10 July 2003 16:20 (twenty years ago) link

Why the hell is Poison on there, this is just so wrong. I will never casually flick through Maxim in WHsmith's again!

― jel -- (jel), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:07 (twenty years ago) link

also, "blaze of glory" is a great album, one of the best £5 I've spent recently! And, it's not actually Bon Jovi album, but a Jon Bon Jovi solo album.

― jel -- (jel), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:11 (twenty years ago) link

Poison is on there because they are horrible.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:11 (twenty years ago) link

They are not more horrible than Bon Jovi, for a start.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:12 (twenty years ago) link

Ooooooh yes they are. Bon Jovi may be Lovecraftian in their horribleness, but Poison is noticeably worse.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:13 (twenty years ago) link

Dan: Whatever!

― jel -- (jel), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:14 (twenty years ago) link

I'll never get why people diss Poison and Bon Jovi, seiously, never.

― jel -- (jel), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:16 (twenty years ago) link

that should be seriously! (oh and don't take this seriously, as I'm only kidding about, y'all can not like them if you want. It's been a bad week)

― jel -- (jel), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:16 (twenty years ago) link

Note to John Bongiovani and co.

"I'm cowboy...on a steel horse I ride..."
No yer not. You're a poodle haired spandex fetishist greasemonkey from jersey. You are NOT a cowboy. You are NOT an outlaw biker. And there is no warrant out to arrest you scrawny ass.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:18 (twenty years ago) link

If you'd gone to junior high with me, you'd understand. Poison is hesher-hell without the good tunes (the only thing that saves Bon Jovi).

Poison is also responsible for one of the ugliest album covers ever created:

http://heavyharmonies.com/cdcovers/P/POISON7.JPG

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:19 (twenty years ago) link

I mean, WTF?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:20 (twenty years ago) link

It's Gene Simmons older sister in the morning before she's had her morning cup of black coffee.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:20 (twenty years ago) link

When it comes to metal, I hold fast to one homily:
"Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but
Poison and Venom will kill me."

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:23 (twenty years ago) link

Poison is hesher-hell without the good tunes (the only thing that saves Bon Jovi).

Reverse the band names and we're set, but we've been over this before (I figure the deal is that Dan has this one genetic flaw that differs from mine).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:24 (twenty years ago) link

You honestly think there's a good tune in "Talk Dirty To Me" (aka "Please Kill Me With Guns")?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:26 (twenty years ago) link

Hell yes! But I do not wish to kill you with guns.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:31 (twenty years ago) link

You honestly think there's a good tune in "Talk Dirty To Me" (aka "Please Kill Me With Guns")?
Is /*that*/ where the crazy drunk guy got that "I kill you will guns, okay?"
crap from?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:33 (twenty years ago) link

Yes, it was a running meme on that first Poison album.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:35 (twenty years ago) link

One more reason to annihilate them and everything they stand for.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:38 (twenty years ago) link

>You honestly think there's a good tune in "Talk Dirty To Me"?<

Uh, it starts out with the same good tune as a Sex Pistols song, then ends with a good tune worthy of a Bay City Rollers song. And then there's CC's EXTREMELY tuneful dumbass guitar solo in the middle. So that makes at least THREE good tunes, just that I remember offhand.
And their first two albums had many other tunes where those came from.

― chuck, Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:43 (twenty years ago) link

custos: you want to kill fun?

― jel -- (jel), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:43 (twenty years ago) link

Oops, I forgot the age-old nursery-rhyme tune in the middle of "Talk Dirty to Me," originally about sliding through your rainbarrel and down your cellar door or whatever (from "My Little Playmate, Come Out and Play With Me," or whatever.) So that's FOUR tunes, and counting.

― chuck, Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:46 (twenty years ago) link

Plus, the video! There really isn't anything not to love about this moment in Poison history.

― Nicole (Nicole), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:48 (twenty years ago) link

custos: you want to kill fun?
No, just give it a flesh wound.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 July 2003 17:48 (twenty years ago) link

he kills it with comedy stylings

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:03 (twenty years ago) link

There is a comical level of rage surging through my body as I think about people enjoying "Talk Dirty To Me". It's like I'm the little boy in "The Emperor's New Clothes" or something.

Hearing this song is what turned me off to top 40 radio from 1986 through 1990. It was like a crack team of mad scientists locked themselves in a lab with the sole intention of creating a song that would piss me off and make me hate humanity.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:05 (twenty years ago) link

those mad scientists were KISS, Dan

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:13 (twenty years ago) link

Do you hate "Cherry Pie" too, Dan?

― Nicole (Nicole), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:18 (twenty years ago) link

DO I EVER

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:25 (twenty years ago) link

Dan, I feel your pain, even though I sort of like Poison's early stuff, you know, pre-that "Something to Believe In" shit

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:28 (twenty years ago) link

You mean before they sold out?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:30 (twenty years ago) link

Real-Time Visceral Reactions: Poison - "Talk Dirty To Me"

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:32 (twenty years ago) link

Whatever happened to Taylor Dayne?

Right after "Tell it to my heart" came out, I remember talking to a girl one night who wanted a career just like Taylor Dane's. In fact, she said "I want to be just like Taylor Dane." I wonder whatever happened to that girl?

Conor Oberst should tour with Taylor Dane. I'd go see him then. (Btw, what's with the Prisoner jacket he's wearing in that pic?)

― Paul Ess, Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:40 (twenty years ago) link

it drives the ladies wild

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:43 (twenty years ago) link

d-a-y-n-e

― p-e-d-a-n-t (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:44 (twenty years ago) link

http://bothsidesnow.co.uk/bothsides2001/gallery/halloween/conor1.jpg

OH BABY

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:45 (twenty years ago) link

his uncle's about to molest him again

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:47 (twenty years ago) link

*cue "Jaws" music*

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:52 (twenty years ago) link

re: style mags take clues from mainstream rock mags

i'm not one to defend maxim really... i don't "read" it very much really... but maxim blender did an info blurb on reynols more than a year ago, which is pretty way ahead of just about any mainstream rock rag... (is wire a rock rag?)

also... wallpaper used to have a pretty good ear as well. my example is lost....but...

can two examples overturn a totally sound argument?

alas, i return to the salt mines...
m.

― msp, Thursday, 10 July 2003 19:15 (twenty years ago) link

taylor dayne: a study

http://www.artistdirect.com/Images/Sources/AMGCOVERS/music/cover200/drc400/c478/c4780845780.jpg

good.

http://www.lyricscafe.com/d/dayne_taylor1.jpg

petulant.

http://www.jungworld.com/night-tracks/nttd01.jpg

GAH! Is THIS why Night Tracks was cancelled?!

http://www.delafont.com/music_acts/Music_Images/t-dayne4.jpg

Taylor today--she's off the drugs and high on life!

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 10 July 2003 19:21 (twenty years ago) link

stone hottie.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 10 July 2003 19:24 (twenty years ago) link

esp. the second pic

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 10 July 2003 19:24 (twenty years ago) link

msp writes:

flashback:
i defended vice on the ILE vice mag thread for having russ waterhouse (!!!) interview violent ramp (!!!!!!), not even a mimeographed edition-of-30 noise zine would dare as much.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 10 July 2003 19:26 (twenty years ago) link

hstencil to thread to add something about how russ is such a nice awesome guy but he's probably driving the van somewhere oh well.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 10 July 2003 19:27 (twenty years ago) link

VIOLENT RAMP ROXXXXXXXXXX

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 10 July 2003 19:40 (twenty years ago) link

jody-in-liking-taylor-dayne-pic-that-closely-resembles-her-own-self shocka!!

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 10 July 2003 20:16 (twenty years ago) link

well then, that calls for somebody to link to her pic!

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 10 July 2003 20:31 (twenty years ago) link

that was very cool of vice. it's like every once in a while tyler durden slips a dolphins of the forest bio into wire...

eep!
m.

― msp, Thursday, 10 July 2003 21:48 (twenty years ago) link

That last Conor Oberst pic (the b/w one) = SID VICIOUS MEETS BERT

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 10 July 2003 22:21 (twenty years ago) link

You cannot shake my Conor love.

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 10 July 2003 22:54 (twenty years ago) link

http://bothsidesnow.co.uk/bothsides2001/gallery/halloween/conor1.jpg http://magic1053.com/images/sesame/bert.jpg

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 10 July 2003 23:22 (twenty years ago) link

conor hate is way more pathetic than conor love.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 10 July 2003 23:45 (twenty years ago) link

though this only became true in 2002.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 10 July 2003 23:46 (twenty years ago) link

where does conor indifference fit in?

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 10 July 2003 23:47 (twenty years ago) link

I've hated conor ever since that fucker came down to athens stalking mangum

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 July 2003 23:47 (twenty years ago) link

conor oberst : jeff mangum :: ed kowalcyzk : michael stipe

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 July 2003 23:48 (twenty years ago) link

I've hated Conor since that one shit show he put on at Koo's. GRR.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 July 2003 23:52 (twenty years ago) link

Conor indifference is dandy. Though I think people love this guy way too much (I think the Desaparecidos album is possible the best album of the decade so far, but that doesn't mean Lifted isn't bloated), he's done enough ambitious, quality work that the haters seem pretty reactionary. Then again, most people seem to be hating him for something he did live, rather than his music.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 10 July 2003 23:54 (twenty years ago) link

besides his self-infatuation is much more rewarding then that guy from Cursive's handwringing.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 10 July 2003 23:56 (twenty years ago) link

Then again, most people seem to be hating him for something he did live, rather than his music.

He did his music live, that's hate enough.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 July 2003 23:58 (twenty years ago) link

what about his show pissed you off so much? and when was it? As I said earlier, it wasn't until 2002 that his music got REALLY good.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:01 (twenty years ago) link

It was before 2002, so if you can explain to me how all of a sudden he got good...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:02 (twenty years ago) link

artists improve, Ned. Though I'm sure he might still be insufferable live for all I know.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:03 (twenty years ago) link

Doubtless. In any event, they may improve, but given the combination of 1) all the other things I'd rather listen to when otherwise 2) not listening to music and loving the silence instead, I'm content to let Conor hone his craft and become special as much as he likes without me caring.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:06 (twenty years ago) link

he had one hit I sorta liked - "A Perfect Sonnet", which was alright in a John Hughes love anthem way, although even it got tired after hearing it on the radio for the nine millionth time. Pretty much personifies everything wrong with indie rock in 2002-3, ie. indierock got to choose between Saddle Creek and DFA and they chose Saddle Creek (see also: their parents picking James Taylor over Roxy Music).

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:06 (twenty years ago) link

ie. goodbye any chances for an American Madchester, hello more late 90s malaise

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:07 (twenty years ago) link

He ain't Taylor and he ain't Dylan, but for the sake of my argument I'm gonna note somebody can listen to Roxy and Dylan and not necessarily pick sides.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:13 (twenty years ago) link

you'd think!

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:13 (twenty years ago) link

but one look at cmj sez 'apparently not'!

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:13 (twenty years ago) link

not really my problem, since I can. I don't know what Mr. Oberst means for the "scene," but I'm digging it at home.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:15 (twenty years ago) link

good for you cuz there's plenty more coming! 1998 will never die!

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:16 (twenty years ago) link

in fact, Oberst has reminded the scene that lyrics are important (after a decade of Malkmusmatadorishness) and that artistic ambition isn't evil, so go him.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:16 (twenty years ago) link

lyrics are important

MMMMMMMMMMM.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:17 (twenty years ago) link

I didn't realize you'd find the concept so tasty, Ned.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:18 (twenty years ago) link

lyrics may be important, but it helps if they're actually any good

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:20 (twenty years ago) link

besides, the crap stuff in 1998 was all that Thrill Jockey post-rock bullshit.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:24 (twenty years ago) link

This last point I will happily agree with Anthony on.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:29 (twenty years ago) link

custos, what is your attraction to that TT tag? i find it mildly annoying.

― ron (ron), Friday, 11 July 2003 00:39 (twenty years ago) link

The teletype tag is beeeeyoootiful. It makes what you're quoting look official, professional, clean and legible.
I have a policy. If I quote something said my an ILM'er I use Italics. If I quote something from "outside" the forum, I use Teletype. I think it's a good policy.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 July 2003 02:39 (twenty years ago) link

i think it looks horrible, but don't let that stop you ;-)

― ron (ron), Friday, 11 July 2003 02:43 (twenty years ago) link

Okay. Let's try this instead:
How does this look to everyone?
(the above should look like a standard version of Helvetica.)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 July 2003 02:52 (twenty years ago) link

it's lovely.

i prefer comic sans though

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 11 July 2003 03:01 (twenty years ago) link

eeeeuuuuuwww. Comic Sans always looks shitty regardless of the context. (I have a hundred Comic Book fonts on my system, and every single goddamned one of them is 100x better than Comic Sans.)
Besides, I think teletype might not really be a font, but a monospacing feature...or somesuch nonsense....that modifies a font.
I haven't done any experiments though.
(Heads over to the HTML Playground area)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 July 2003 03:04 (twenty years ago) link

hey, i solved it on my end too - by choosing another font preference in my browser. so tt away, sir.

btw my browser overrides your helvetica font also

NOTHING BUT SWEET BEAUTIFUL ARIAL hehe ;-)

also btw my html book says tt stands for 'typewriter text'

― ron (ron), Friday, 11 July 2003 03:04 (twenty years ago) link

yes, tt tells your browser to use it's default monospace font

― ron (ron), Friday, 11 July 2003 03:06 (twenty years ago) link

HELLO THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT BRIGHT EYES IT IS ABOUT LOUSY ALBUMS

oh wait

― maura (maura), Friday, 11 July 2003 04:11 (twenty years ago) link

scoobyists are those who pick "scooby albums". a scooby pick is like at the end of a scooby doo episode the evil dude is always revealed as the person so unlikely it HAD to be them. like "metal machine music" is lou's best album is a scoobyist pick. evenmoreso maybe "sally can't dance".

we used to talk about this lots back in the infancy of ilm.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 11 July 2003 04:25 (twenty years ago) link

maura will you marry me

― geeta, Friday, 11 July 2003 04:39 (twenty years ago) link

la la la la la la!!!!

― maura (maura), Friday, 11 July 2003 04:57 (twenty years ago) link

What? Why no Britney. Atleast Deborah Gibson did her own materail and looked cute. Now looks hot!!!

And what about Mandy Moore "So Real", "The Flying Nun" soundtrack, and "Kids Bop".

― John Norton, Sunday, 13 July 2003 01:53 (twenty years ago) link

"at least"

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 13 July 2003 02:02 (twenty years ago) link

four months pass...

― rv, Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:22 (twenty years ago) link

Pearl Jam - Vitalogy ... "I said no foam on that latte, zit-face"

i still like this review.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Thursday, 11 December 2003 00:27 (twenty years ago) link

seven months pass...

Apart from Yoko Ono (who most critics don't even consider as important OR bad) there is no remotely tough target on the entire list. Most of the albums would be rejected offhand by almost every critic.

So much of Maxim's list consists of the most routine targets of the rock critics - Milli Vanilli, Hanson, Air Supply (#10 on Blender's "50 Worst Artists Of All Time"), Ricky Martin, Debbie Gibson, Tiffany. The albums by Dylan, the Stones and R.E.M. date from after they "sold out" or lost relevance.

Many critics really don't see grunge as actually relevent nowadays, so Pearl Jam is no tough target either.

Though he really does not attack tough targets, the intelligent amateur "janitor-x" (see "http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-glance/-/A2AXIWOCL9XOMM/ref=cm_aya_ac_longdesc/102-0267016-6736903?see-more-desc=1") does realise how irrelevant people today understand these super-soft targets of Blender and Maxim to be. "janitor-x" believes the idolisation of the 1960s to be quite unrealistic and a betrayal of the roots of rock music. For him, the worst artists ever are U2, the Beatles, the Cure, R.E.M. (all eras), Rage Against The Machine, the Smiths, the Clash and Pavement. His views on music might be seen as rather narrow, but his intellignce betrays popular assumptions about metals fans - for one thing.

― Julien Peter Benney, Monday, 9 August 2004 23:18 (nineteen years ago) link

ya wasted my time Julien Peter Benney, with your **janitor-x** scam.
that guy's a talentless bum.

6 of 27 people found the following review helpful:

gangstagangsta, January 12, 2001
Reviewer: A music fan

I'll say I was impressed with them's collection of songs. Perhaps the best gangsta rap album of 1965 this one must be picked up. the beats are so fat. Its all over now fet. Van Morrison is so phat. peace out ya'll

― The Bells! The Bells!, Tuesday, 10 August 2004 00:20 (nineteen years ago) link

fifteen years pass...

None of these albums are bad.

― billstevejim, Thursday, 22 August 2019 03:46 (four years ago) link

I remember liking <i>Fore!</i> "Doin it all for my bayyba" That song is funny.

― billstevejim, Thursday, 22 August 2019 03:48 (four years ago) link

I mean Fore!

― billstevejim, Thursday, 22 August 2019 03:48 (four years ago) link

All this talk about Conor Oberst upthread. That’s someone who fits the “Whose artistic legacies have declined in the past ten years?” thread like a glove.

― Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 22 August 2019 15:09 (four years ago) link

There has never been a good “Worst Albums Ever” list.

― Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 22 August 2019 15:10 (four years ago) link

Wow, what a dumb list. I mean it's Maxim, but still.

― Dez Tekken (Old Lunch), Thursday, 22 August 2019 15:13 (four years ago) link

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