[META] Soul Music

Hornby?

2)Because MOST people here are indie-centric or started being interested in music via indie. Natural branching out from here is towards electronica/dance or maybe the rock canon. Soul is a step or two too far - likewise jazz.

3) There isn't really a canon to help people get started. Despite protestations to the contrary we LIKE lists.

I love soul and have a quite a lot of Motown, Northern, 70's pop soul, some Stax etc, but I feel like I'm only just scratching the surface. I'm fairly clueless when it comes to Al Green, southern soul, Kent etc.

- it's not a very rockist genre, ha. ie singles more important than albums, the hit-factory idea, same songs covered many times by different artists. doesn't have the same meaty canon of albums and undisputed greats that we like to get our teeth into?

x-post with Dr C.

".... likewise jazz." but we do discuss jazz quite regularly don't we? OK, fundamentally you're right that most of us are largely indie-oriented but we do still seem happy to discuss jazz occasionally - and there are several people who here who are clearly extremely knowledgable on the subject.

"There isn't really a canon to help people get started." well, actually there is a canon, isn't there? It just happens to be predominantly singles-based rather than album-based and tends to involve a lot of compilations; whereas, being indie-oriented, most of us are predominantly album-oriented.

Even with reggae (which as a genre was probably even more singles-oriented than soul) and psychedelia we seem to prefer to think of / discuss it in terms of albums, even when a great many of those "albums" are in fact compilations which have been cunningly disguised as albums.

There was a great thread on Bernadette by the Four Tops once.

X-post with Tom; no, because ILM is a democracy, and if people decide they want to talk about soul they'll start threads.

Nick I'm not saying that I as administrator should mandate one soul thread a day - I'm saying that, assuming people might like to talk about it, what is the best way of getting opinions out of them? Being controversial? Being funny? Encouraging listmaking?

(i cannot believe i am the only 40+ here who has never liked the stuff, either...
haha cue 'snowy - do you hate fun misery?')

I guess a good starting point would be to challenge the underlying assumption that compilations (and particularly various-artist compilations) aren't all necessarily by definition embarrassing "Now That's What I Call The Lamest Idea In The World.... Evah!!! (Vol. 854)" examples of how shallow we and our understanding / appreciation of a particular genre are, but can be the absolute pinnacles of that genre.

well kind of. Even though this place is called I love music, which should include all types of music being discussed in an equal amount...well, as it turns out this place reflects the average age of most of its posters: and most of its posters listen to pop and indie.

I think with jazz there are a few posters who know lots abt it and are prepared to start threads on it but ILM is actually favoured towards the 'free' end of things (jazz post '58) and there are 5-10 posters who start threads, and more importantly, are not that bothered by the fact that they will get 10 answers or less. I have talked to one or two posters that like soul and i think they are bothered by this.

but if you are interested in music it doesn't matter. you can learn. that's what records are for.

Admittedly soul doens't fit this template as well as classical and jazz do.

Popular, granted, but there's a big difference between 'popular' music and 'pop' music as emerged in the late 50s, early 60s.

I've got to ask, what do you mean by this Dave? I have only really gotten into soul in the last few years, but artists like James Carr, Eddie Campbell, Otis Redding, Sam Cooke, Howard Tate, Darrell Banks, Marvin Gaye, O.V. Wright, the Impressions, Carla Thomas, William Bell and many many more. I think the 70s stuff is great, and a good argument could be made that some artists (but only some artists) were putting out albums in the 60s filled with a few hits and a number of misses, but other artists were putting out really amazing albums in the 60s. I don't see how you could say the 60s stuff is awful.

What is it that makes this more appealing to us indie-centric rockists than the more obviously pop(ular) end of that genre (or indeed soul) do you think?

other main point of entry was the Guralnick Book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316332739/qid=1059479940/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1087255-4624730?v=glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1841952400/qid=1059479740/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/026-3922761-9840433
(first published 1986; what have they done to the great original cover??)

There isn't really a difficult end of soul, which is perhaps why obscurantism is substituted. My way into loving soul - and I'm not proud of this - was to find an area which I could think of as mine, which happened to be country-tinged Southern soul as written about by Barney Hoskyns in "Say It One Time For The Brokenhearted". It was nice to be able to be sniffy and superior about (say) Philly stuff or Motown while I was working out what I liked. Please note that I no longer take that line.

From time to time in that book the "disco was the triumph of Motown over Stax" thing is trotted out in a vaguely disapproving way, and I seem to recall and it's maybe why I have some sympathy for the Stax = rockist soul line, uncomfortable though it is for me.

I can see where you're coming from, but I guess to say that the whole decade of soul music is awful just seems extreme.

Yes you're probably right Jerry - I think perhaps what I meant was that there is no such thing as the soul Velvet Underground. (This is probably a good thing for soul).

the 'bernadette' thread sounds ace - any chance of a link?

The Soul Velvet Underground = Parliament / Funkadelic?

http://www.nrk.no/img/201985.jpeg

Errrr.... excuse me....

point taken!

I was going to ask the same question as Tom a while ago. It does seem weird.

60/70s soul music provides many of my favourite records. I don't have that level of knowledge where I can talk about it though beyond saying stuff like "Throw Away The Key by the Bell Brothers makes me cry" or "I think Irma Thomas has my favourite voice of all".

Or maybe I just don't really want to talk about it. It's for the heart not the brain, etc.

There is definitely an element of 60s Soul having naff 80s Levis ad connotations.

"Does anyone else feel like "Soul" has fallen from use in the USA?"

I wouldn't know about that, but I'm sure (in the UK at least) the term "R&B" has been co-opted and applied to something that has little or nothing (other than skin tones) in common with Ray Charles, Curtis Mayfield or Smokey Robinson.

You can speculate about the factors that led to that (Northern soul, the early 80s soul boom, older writers that had lived through the classic Stax/Motown periods, the soul obsession of bands like Orange Juice, the chronicling of soul music by people like Peter Guralnick, etc), but I'm often surprised by how far off many (younger) people's critical radar soul now is.

i'm not sure what you mean here. are you talking about contemporary r&b? if so, is it really all that different barring new methods of creating sounds? is this just soul/r&b this applies to, or could you equally say the same about 60s/00s rock or regaee or something?

the thing is, the 'avant' in soul was often simultaneously populist, which is something i find utterly fascinating. ie, early 70s stevie wonder stuff's reliance upon synths, etc, for the majority of/all of its orchestrations is, on the face of it, bold and bizarre, and was probably quite the headfuck at the time, but since these songs have since become canonical classics prized chiefly for their melodic brilliance, their very 'avant' twist is often overlooked.

and what about Isaac Hayes' 'hot buttered soul' album? the long intro to 'by the time i get to phoenix' always struck me as an act of shocking genius, but isaac was a populist success, hailed as the Black Moses and scoring all manner of movies and, arguably, inpiring the gloriously gloopy bedroom soundtrax of the 1970s...

is the import of commercial success a defining aspect of soul music, though? i'm struggling to think of 'soul' artists who recorded albums that were purposefully anti-commercial (marvin gaye's 'here my dear' aside), no matter how far out they might be in sound or concept...

Cool to see that number 46 went to Anthology - Smoky Bacon & The Miracles. Wonder why eggs and hash browns didn't make the list.

Yup

"if so, is it really all that different barring new methods of creating sounds?"

I would say so, yes. "Contemporary R&B" compared with the R&B of the 60's and '70's sounds as different to my ears as Rock does from Pop.

"is this just soul/r&b this applies to, or could you equally say the same about 60s/00s rock or reggae or something?"

No. I can perceive "new methods of creating sounds" as you put it and I can see the distinction between e.g. Heavy Metal and Grunge while recognising that both are still Rock or between Rock Steady and Dancehall while recognising that both are still Reggae.

When I hear "Contemporary R&B" however I frequently find myself confused as to why it has been labelled "R&B" rather than (in some instances) "Hip Hop" or (in others) "Pop".

i'd agree that there is a huge change in terms of the attitudes presented in the lyrics of a lot of r&b when compared to the 60s stuff, but as you say this is down to the shifting attitudes of those who make and consume the music - surely at root contemporary r&b is about love, sex and money - same as it's always been. i'd have said there's been more of a change in rock from the idealistic, communal, *outward looking* stance of a lot of sixties stuff to solipsistic, antisocial concerns of limp biskit or whoever.

i guess also, though, it does depend on what you're calling r&b - i was thinking really of stuff like destiny's child or TLC rather than jay z or something which i'd think of as hip hop.

has that kind of experimentation stopped (or has it? and if not where is it today?) in soul music bcz these supposed innovations were overlooked in the first place?

Don't forget the blues in rhythm n blues. The change in soul/R&B can perhaps be characterised as a shift away from singers inhabiting the position of victims, towards being confident predators. That doesn't explain early funk or happy dance floor fillers, but maybe that hey that's just dance music: it doesn't need to display a face to the world.

I think this is why post 70s soul doesn't generally move me as much. I hope it's not cause I want black people to stay victims. I don't think it is. I think I just like singers to be victims.

An r&b fan from the 50s might very well make the same comment ("this isn't recognisable as the same music Shirley & Lee made!") about a lot of 70s soul, btw

N.: post 70s soul doesn't move you so much because you're irredeemably indie and like your real emotional music with proper guitars and drums. (I'm joking)

Even so, I'm not sure I'd have a lot to say about Soul. Maybe it's easier to talk about things I have only recently discovered how to enjoy.

Oh, definitely. The general shift towards freer structures and grooves in music that dave q applauds above led to huge changes in soul, for sure. I blame the sexual revolution, obv.

I don't know about that. I think the not-entirely secularised Gospel presence in 60s soul added a kind of millennarian urgency to the Civil Rights Movement. 'Dancing in the Streets', for example, isn't just about what it says on the tin. I wonder if it's this gospel presence - in whatever form - that N mourns the absence of in post-70s R&B.

Tim, are you saying that you can't identify a logical progression from Rocksteady to Dancehall or that you can identify (a less diluted and convoluted) one from 60's R&B to Contemporary R&B?

I'm particularly confused in view of your second sentence:

"An r&b fan from the 50s might very well make the same comment ("this isn't recognisable as the same music Shirley & Lee made!") about a lot of 70s soul, btw".

Although strangely, now that you raise the subject, I can see some connection between some Contemporary R&B and 50's Doo Wop which almost seems to bypass the 60's R&B / Soul / Funk lineage....

but 'dancing in the street' IS about dancing in the streets, it just *sounds* like it's about more...

The Shirley and Leee comment was not supposed to reinforce the previous point... bad drafting, sorry! I just felt like raising the spectre of a previous kind of r&b.

There's something here about (bogus) generic heritages being imposed on musics from particular places / reaces / classes too, and genre as empty appeal to history but I'm not the man to write it, not today.

Speaking of which - shit! Is that the time?

I adore soul, but part of adoring something is recognizing when it fails to deliver. Sometimes when I post even mildly critical thoughts about a particular canonized soul singer, I get accused of fun-hating or some such. I think discussion would be better if people countenanced a bit more debate.

...

There is still a lot of gospel influence on R&B, although it's not as defining as it was in the 1960s (really this is what defines "soul" as distinct from the broader category of R&B: it's almost gospel music transposed to the secular sphere)...it's just that gospel has changed, the singing styles have changed.

meanwhile I don't talk about soul much like others out of a feeling of ignorance. i listen plenty, i enjoy, there's stuff which i like that doesn't happen anymore but happens there. but i can't engage it as it *was* and disbelieve most narratives of how it *was* including most in this thread, but mainly on a doesn't-ring-true instictive level. and i *also* can't engage it as it matters today as it is cut out of most discourse.

the debates on motown i've seen have allsortsa interesting class/race dimensions as did that motown/stax thread. they actually point to how undie has gotten underplayed in certain aspects and the undie -> motown link in terms of mobility, aspirationalism, etc. bears more discussion.

by the way, if you want just one compilation to get you going, try this one. it'll cost you but believe me it'll pay you back.

The Atlantic Rhythm & Blues set, on the other hand....

Also, a Motown complete A-sides 1960-say-1971 compilation would probably be the greatest album of all time.

Of course you will also need this or at very least this but that should be enough to get you started!

Other comps worth mentioning are (as adam b says above) the three volumes of Dave Godin's Deep Soul Treasures and the Sweet Soul Music comp compiled to accompany Peter Guralnick's book.

Tough luck, I don't know what to tell ya. If you can build a time machine, believe me, I'll be right there with you.

The most extraordinary thing about it to my mind is the total omission of anything by The Jackson 5 / Michael Jackson but otherwise it is exceptionally good.

Everything I've seen either seems to include far too much on the pre-'68 material I've already got like this one or it's waaaay more comprehensive (read "expensive") than I'm reaslly looking for, like this one and this one.

If anyone knows of something I've missed....

er, my iancu dumitrescu thread got what 3-4 responses.

Hey I just had a Best of John Prine LP in my hands last night but I put it back -- always been curious about his stuff (embarassing to admit but mostly b/c I love the 10,000 Maniacs version of "Hello in There.")

I must admit that I am not sure whether my thoughts on soul music are worth posting. Possibly I don't even really know what is meant by 'soul music', though I have my own notions. But everyone else has stuck an oar in.

I am always getting moved by music. That's what it's there for. Are you saying that people who don't get that from soul music are jerks, nerds, dweebs or something?

He's adopted by a black family and never feels like he fits in, never getting moved by the blues and soul that surround him. Then one day some big band comes on the radio and he gets touched by that. It's just playing on the cliché of it all happening the other way around.

That's an error. We should. He's great.

I really like those label-centered comps although they can be overwhelming. The Stax one is obv. tops, but there are also great boxes for Vee-Jay, OKeh, Sue, Specialty, Roulette, etc. etc. Those last ones focus on R&B prior to the emergence of soul, for the most part.

I'm a SOUL man. RFI.

I hadn't heard that but that is a terrible shame - I've got it it on vinyl and it all sounds absolutely glorious.

I don't think it was my first box-set; but I'd certainly never owned one that big before.

I remember reading about it somewhere and dropping all these huge hints to my girlfriend at the time about what a great birthday present it would make for someone who was just starting to get into R&B.... not realising that this wasn't just 4 or 5 records like I'd assumed but 14!

She bought it for me, bless 'er 'eart; but when I saw the size of the thing (and subsequently discovered how much it had cost*) I realised that she must have thought I was a total greedy bastard for asking her to get it for me!

* - forty quid I believe, which was a lot of money to us in those days!

Let me explain that last sentence, if I can: in my experience Southern soul is, as a poster remarked above, nearly bottomless in that even among the obscurities there are awesome gems--I discover new ones all the time. Last year I picked up three volumes of The Heart of Southern Soul, which compiles singles from the Excello and related labels, and there are astonishingly good things on there. "Snake Out of Green Grass" by Roshell Anderson (sp?) ranks with almost any soul single I know.

Remember Southern soul was the sound of an entire region, picked up on dozens of labels over two decades. Philly soul was really the province of two or three labels, a handful of producers, etc., over a decade or so (at lest no one seems too concerned with "Philly soul" before 1967 and after 1979)--and Motown of course was just one label (and a bunch of imprints) with a fairly smallish stable of artists. It stands to reason that the former "genre" (if it can even be considered as such) would bare more riches if you look hard enough. Although as noted above there are delicious Motown obscurities to be found as well.

Disc: 1
1. Blowin' in the wind - Wonder, Stevie
2. You keep me hanging on - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
3. Standing in the shadows of love - Four Tops
4. It takes two - Gaye, Marvin & Kim Weston
5. When you're young and in love - Marvelettes
6. I know I'm losing you - Temptations
7. What becomes of the brokenhearted - Ruffin, Jimmy
8. Happening - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
9. Seven rooms of gloom - Four Tops
10. How sweet it is (to be loved by you) - Walker, Junior & The All Stars
11. I'm ready for love - Reeves, Martha & The Vandellas
12. Love is here and now you're gone - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
13. Gonna give her all the love I've got - Ruffin, Jimmy
14. I was made to love her - Wonder, Stevie
15. Take me in your arms and love me - Knight, Gladys & The Pips
16. Jimmy Mack - Reeves, Martha & The Vandellas

Disc: 2
1. Ain't nothing like the real thing - Gaye, Marvin & Tammi Terrell
2. Reflections - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
3. If you can want - Robinson, Smokey & The Miracles
4. You keep running away - Four Tops
5. I could never love another (after loving you) - Temptations
6. I heard it through the grapevine - Knight, Gladys & The Pips
7. I'm wondering - Wonder, Stevie
8. I've passed this way before - Ruffin, Jimmy
9. Some things you never get used to - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
10. Gotta see Jane - Taylor, R. Dean
11. Shoo be doo be doo da day - Wonder, Stevie
12. You're my everything - Temptations
13. Honey chile - Reeves, Martha & The Vandellas
14. If I were a carpenter - Four Tops
15. I second that emotion - Robinson, Smokey & The Miracles
16. If I could build my whole world around you - Gaye, Marvin & Tammi Terrell

Disc: 3
1. I heard it through the grapevine - Gaye, Marvin
2. I'm gonna make you love me - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
3. My cherie amour - Wonder, Stevie
4. This old heart of mine (is weak for you) - Isley Brothers
5. I'll pick a rose for my rose - Marv Johnson
6. No matter what sign you are - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
7. I'm in a different world - Four Tops
8. Dancing in the the street - Reeves, Martha Reeves and The Vandellas
9. For once in my life - Stevie Wonder
10. You're all I need to get by - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell
11. Get ready - Temptations
12. Stop her on sight (SOS) - Starr, Edwin
13. Love child - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
14. Behind the painted smile - Isley Brothers
15. I'm a roadrunner - Walker, Junior & The All Stars
16. The tracks of my tears - Robinson, Smokey & The Miracles

Disc: 4
1. I want you back - Jackson Five
2. Onion song - Gaye, Marvin & Tammi Terrell
3. I can't help myself - Four Tops
4. Up the ladder to the roof - Supremes
5. I can't get next to you - Temptations
6. Too busy thinking 'bout my baby - Gaye, Marvin
7. Yester-Me, yester-You, yesterday - Stevie Wonder
8. Someday we'll be together - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
9. ABC - Jackson 5
10. Never had a dream come true - Wonder, Stevie
11. Farewell is a lonely sound - Jimmy Ruffin
12. Do you what you gotta do - Four Tops
13. I second that emotion - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
14. Cloud 9 - Temptations
15. What does it take (to win your love) - JR Walker and the All Stars
16. Reach out and touch (somebody's hand) - Diana Ross

Disc: 5
1. The tears of a clown - Robinson, Smokey
2. War - Starr, Edwin
3. The love you save - Jackson Five
4. Ball of confusion (that's what the world is today) - Temptations
5. It's all in the game - Four Tops
6. Heaven help us all - Wonder, Stevie
7. It's wonderful (to be loved by you) - Jimmy Ruffin
8. Ain't no mountain high enough - Ross, Diana
9. Signed sealed delivered (I'm yours) - Wonder, Stevie
10. Stoned love - Supremes
11. Abraham Martin and John - Gaye, Marvin
12. Still water (love) - Four Tops
13. Forget me not - Reeves, Martha
14. It's a shame - Motown Spinners
15. I'll be there - Jackson Five
16. I'll say forever my love - Wonder, Stevie

Disc: 6
1. I'm still waiting - Ross, Diana
2. I don't blame you at all - Robinson, Smokey & The Miracles
3. We can work it out - Wonder, Stevie
4. Never can say goodbye - Jackson Five
5. These things will keep me lovin' you - Velvelettes
6. Indiana wants me - Taylor, R. Dean
7. River deep mountain high - Supremes & Four Tops
8. Just my imagination (running away with me) - Temptations
9. Nathan Jones - Supremes
10. Simple game - Four Tops
11. Heaven must have sent you - Elgins
12. It's Summer - Temptations
13. Remember me - Ross, Diana
14. Mama's pearl - Jackson Five
15. (Come round here) I'm the one you need - Robinson, Smokey & The Miracles
16. Just seven numbers (can straighten out my life) - Four Tops

Hands up if you think the greatest Motown single is "I Can't Give Back the Love I Feel for You" by Rita Wright!

FUCKING HELL THE FOUR TOPS WERE GOOD!

I do not think there is anything as satisfying in this world as a really, really good singles compilation, and the Tops' Ultimate Collection is surely that.

This guy and other soul rarity DJs around New York (hello Lynne K!!) who have, in my view, created the garage comeback more than anybody else: these rock kids get dressed up in their regulation white belts and leather jackets and messed-up hair and go to Shout at Bar 13 or Don Hill's or Motherfucker, and straight-up rockabilly and Nuggets gets old ofter awhile. Soul DJs realized they had stuff from the same period, often stuff the Nuggets people were TRYING to sound like in the FIRST place, and have been really big successes with these crowds by rescuing all these old 45s that hold more joyous, exuberant, brassy attitude than anybody (by anybody I mean "I", of course) knew existed. Very few ballads (sorry Mark!)

Here's a sample playlist:

Big Bo Thomas & the Arrows How About It (Part 1)
Belita Woods Grounded
Randy & the Soul Citizens Meet Me at the Pool (Part 2)
Bo Dud & Johnny Twist The Get It
Kim Melvin Doin. the Popcorn
Charles Spurling Popcorn Charlie
King Sporty The More Things Change
Johnny Thompson Ain.t No Fool
The Fabulous Soul Eruption A Very Special Friend
Darryl Carter L-O-V-E
Double Soul I Can't Use You
Joe Lee Bottom of the Bag
Morris Vaughan My Love Keeps Growing
Joe Ponds When We Get on Cloud Nine
The Inclines The Hippie
Lee Webber Seventh Son
Little Buck Little Boy Blue
Don Carrington Trio If I Were a Carpenter
Blue Rhythm Combo Take the Funky Feeling
Herb Johnson Settlement Damph F'Aint
Dennis on Drums Black Beauty #2

It's true that Southern was the sound of a whole region but the mode of production was surely not as industrial or as prolific as in that decade in Philly? I get the impression that with a few exceptions like Fame and Hi, the key studios and acts were run on a much more sporadic basis and the volume of soul output was simply lower.

Can you recommend some Texan soul? I don't know much past bits of Huey Meaux-produced stuff, having concentrated more on Muscle Shoals, Memphisand Nashville and bits of Louisiana.

Texas soul? Hmmm... Archie Bell and the Drells?

'Etta comes offstage, raving about Hairy Garcia. "That motherfucker Hairy in there, that blew me out man, the motherfucker can play!"
"Etta, it's Jerry, Jerry Garcia"
"Harry? Fuck you! Fuckin' Harry can play, man."'

R&B was not a term invented for soul. It was a renaming, for the better, of the old "race charts" and was applied to all black styles for a long time. It now usefully if confusingly describes two distinct styles: that dancier version of the blues that doesn't quite become soul or rock 'n' roll (say Bo Diddley, Rosco Gordon), and the new dancey soully stuff like Beyonce. It's rare for any problems to arise in this dual usage - probably less rare than the same difficulty with 'garage'. Because of its link to the charts, which I believe are still going, I would imagine that R&B will mean something again in the future, and there will be old people saying "That isn't R&B! R&B is TLC and Destiny's Child! Heresy!"

Naff ads and soul's position in the '80s as some easy signifier of a certain feebleminded brand of cool hasn't destroyed much of it for soul fans. I used to be in a few Yahoo groups devoted to soul, and they were just like a certain kind of indie hipster - they had their agreed canon, they were sniffy about anyone expressing a love for anyone too obvious, they preferred it if their favourites had never made the charts, and they loathed anything outside their rigid paradigms.

Matos: Warren Zevon being diagnosed with cancer may have got nine responses: I started an RIP thread for Homer Banks, a man who not only made some terrific records but was half of the number 2 songwriting team at Stax, so was near to the heart of one of the key musical moments in history, and got, as I recall, one reply. (A good one from Jesse Hill, I am pretty sure it was.)

There is this stultefying respect for soul. One person I know once described me as "the only person with better taste than me," which mystified me because although the definition of good taste is clearly what I like, I kind of assume that other people think the same about their own taste. I asked him what that meant, and it was that I had great taste in loads of areas, much like him, but that I was also a serious soul fan, and while he knew that was great music he didn't care for it, so therefore I had even better taste than him!

I tried for a while to get some discussion about soul here, as it is my absolute favourite music ever, but it never really went anywhere. The way it was treated reminded me rather of something like Mojo, which occasionally remembers that it is pretending to be a music mag and not specifically a rock mag, so in between special issues on Creedence Clearwater Revival or the Small Faces they'll shove in a soul special. I think that James Brown or Al Green or Smokey Robinson or Aretha Franklin or Marvin Gaye are every bit as worth a whole issue of a genuinely general music mag as the Stones/Who/Beatles, but this seems to be very much a minority view. We get the same thing here - POX Nirvana or Dinosaur Jr, or reggae. I want a discussion about what made Al Green a great singer, not "name some good soul records".

This place is no more a general music site than Mojo, and it's in no sense an obligation on ILM to discuss everything in equal depth or with equal enthusiasm - I think I'm very rare here in knowing and caring far more about Al Jackson than My Bloody Valentine. Most people are more interested in guitar music and in what's happening now, and there's nothing remotely wrong with that. I would say that if I want the kind of detailed discussion of soul that would suit me I could go to those soul groups I mentioned, but in fact they were deathly dull places. The only thing I liked was that I got to chat with Swamp Dogg some on one of them, which was as special to me as finding Momus hanging around here presumably is to some others.

But isn't the reason that there is basically no one today that holds the tradition of classic soul? Every year there comes artist that are compared to i.e. Bob Dylan, but I haven't heard a reference to classic soul in ages.

And todays soul is just not interesting enough. Not because the classic soul was more genuine (as someone allready said - it all came out of a couple of hit-making sweat shops), but because the singers and song writers just doesn't stand up to the challenge.

RIP ilxor Martin Skidmore

very tempted by this

http://img1.etsystatic.com/il_fullxfull.292077865.jpg