Busty Women of Rock, Unite! [Amazingly this took 35 posts to become POTENTIALLY WORK-UNSAFE]

JULIAN CASABLANCAS, REPRESENT!!!!!!!!

Ha-hem.

Is this going to turn into a picture thread at some point?

How about the leftover Stereolab chick, huh? Refined, elegant, but busty all the same. Are any of the Mountaineers busty? I'm guessing yes.

http://www.rockmine.music.co.uk/O_Cyclo/WendyO.GIF

W.O.W. R.I.P.

Right - NOT the Mountaineers, it's the...the...let me get back to you

http://www.postmodern.com/~fi/pattipics/images/awing3.jpg

(photo by Robert Mapplethorpe)

Mama?

http://djuna.nkino.com/kst/Miscellaneous/KST-GermanInStyleMarch2000.jpg

(me being very literal about why women *may* not be interested in this thread...)

I'm here mostly for the trainwreck. And have been on a mental trip about "women in music" and the belittling perceptions/expectations thereof for the last few days.

Anyway. I've probably said too much.

Rik: "They're called breasts and everybody has them!"

So I give you the Busty men of rock:
http://molodezhnaja.ch/film/fight3.jpg
(Meat Loaf in "Fight Club")

http://www.donatellashead.com/images/FicImages/monkees_mike_sketch_girl1.jpg

post script: meg holds no candle to janet, however.

Isn't the drummer in White Stripes busty? Define busty - are you talking Dolly Parton size, or what?
-- Davlo (daveloe...), January 29th, 2004. (later)

this is my problem too. and i've even attempted to subvert the way my music is sometimes judged by how "shaggable" i might be, to try and draw attention to the constructedness of femininity (cos y know i obviously take judith butler's work wasy too seriously or something) but it seems totally lost on the heterosexual males who come to my shows. while all of this crap isn't intended to be taken seriously, the women musicians i know would LIKE to be taken seriously. i for one am fucking sick of some guy at the pub telling my tits he likes my band. and theres always at least three at every gig.

maybe i'm wrong, but it seems like theres been a proliferation of threads like this lately - and not all of them are started by calum. it makes me regret all the times i've talked about hot girls on the boards, cos the air of these threads is one that i'm now REALLY uncomfortable with accomodating/reiterating/whatevs. its very interesting, to examine the relationship between image and the reception of music i guess but we all know that that isn't really what this thread is about. maybe some of you could start your own board called "i love gawking at women" so you can talk about gawking at women to your hearts content.

You talk about how sick you are of guys looking at your tits, but are you wearing low-cut tops that accentuate them? If guys dressed as provocatively as girls do, by wearing pants that showed half their cocks falling out of some opening, I'm sure there'd be just as many women talking to our crotches as guys talking to your tits.

It's so goddamned hypocritical when women complain that men look at them. You (women) go through so much narcissistic primping and preening, and wearing sexy clothes that are designed to catch men's eyes. You work damn hard to get us to look; then when we do you act all offended and demeaned.

I realize that I'm going to take a lot of flak for this, but so what. I also realize that I don't know how you present yourself on stage, but my guess is that you want to look good, and that means that you are following the social expectations and ideals of what "good looking" means. If you don't want to be looked at, wear clothes that don't reveal your flesh. It's simple. If you want to be treated with respect and as an equal to the men in a male dominated society, then don't accentuate your more feminine qualities.

I doubt you've ever worked in the professional business world, but in that environment women who wear revealing outfits, like very short skirts and open blouses are not respected for their abilities. They are regarded as sexual females who are easy, or slutty. Why? Because that's the image they are projecting. Sorry, but that's reality. You can't have it both ways.

Are you five years old?

Not all women seek to use their disposable attractiveness to men as an advantage to get ahead, believe it or not. There are lots of times I've wished I looked more butch or masculine than I do simply to deflect attention from myself. Not that I am such a looker, but guys aren't picky apparently. Just going out at night to get a cup of coffee with a friend or play my guitar, I'm accosted by men asking me to smile, demanding things of me, propositioning me, telling me this or that. It is just a fact that heterosexual men don't do this to other men... women are seen as available to have things requested of them, and as the post above illustrates, *some* (not all) men seem to think that women basically exist for their (gawking? self-esteem-boosting?) benefit. It's the feeling I get that most of them really don't give a damn who I am as a person; I have breasts, so they can feel free to invade my personal space and assume things about me.

Sorry for the semi-rant, cos I promised myself I wouldn't run my mouth in forums ever again... but I'm feeling the Ms. Lurex's pain just a little.

I'm not a humorless person by any means and I drool over/crush on indie rock ladies all the time. There's just a point where the awareness of this attitude becomes sort of overwhelming, and I see it a lot in the perceptions of other woman musicians on forums, in press, etc. It makes me somewhat pessimistic and antagonistic when I think about how I want to present myself as an artist if I ever decide to do so in a larger venue. Because you're always either going with the perception of yourself as acceptably feminine and digestible, or you're fighting against it-- you can't remain unaware of it.

This isn't meant to be preachy, it's only what I see coming at from this position. That said, I actually prefer the less busty women, when given a choice...

Let me make it clear - my comments are addressing the way *some* women like to think they can have it both ways. By that, I mean that they want to dress in whatever revealing manner they wish, yet at the same time they wish to be ignored by men. It's that simple. Do you understand? I'm not trying to justify rape, or say that women exist only for the pleasure of gawking men. Instead of putting words in my mouth, and twisting my words to your own agendas, try listening to and understanding what I'm actually saying.

It's so goddamned hypocritical when women complain that men look at them. You (women) go through so much narcissistic primping and preening, and wearing sexy clothes that are designed to catch men's eyes. You work damn hard to get us to look; then when we do you act all offended and demeaned.

I realize that I'm going to take a lot of flak for this, but so what. I also realize that I don't know how you present yourself on stage, but my guess is that you want to look good, and that means that you are following the social expectations and ideals of what "good looking" means. If you don't want to be looked at, wear clothes that don't reveal your flesh. It's simple. If you want to be treated with respect and as an equal to the men in a male dominated society, then don't accentuate your more feminine qualities.

A little too late to claim you were only talking about 'some' women, sunshine. And for someone who said they knew they were going to get flak you're awfully defensive all of a sudden.

And what exactly are you trying to prove by quoting my words? What do take issue with? Be specific, because rght now it looks like you aren't saying anything that takes a different stance than me. Don't quote me if you have nothing to add other than calling me "sunshine" and asking if I'm 5. Comments like that tell me that you really have nothing to say about this.

*sigh* Okay, you're a miserable sexist troglodyte who conflates idiotic standards about personal appearances with pronouncements about female worth into something that is so grotesquely ridiculous that I'd almost prefer to see it as parody if you weren't so doggedly serious on the point.

I was going to write a post defending Di but you know, she needs no defense. Because she has a brain and uses it, unlike others.

She does? I didn't notice, I was too busy looking at her hooters.

There you go! Name calling. You have NOTHING to say other than to attack me personally. I am neither a sexist, nor a troglodyte, but since you have decided that I am, please show me where I made the sexist statements that you accuse me of. I never once made any comments about female worth, but as I said earlier, you like to put words in my mouth to promote your own agenda.

You continually fail to be specific in your statements about why you take issue with my post. Instead you choose to make personal attacks and call me names. And you inquired about MY age?

You are an unusual man.

That said, I cordially invite you to, paraphrasing your own words, "wear pants that showed half your cock falling out of some opening" into your office one day as a social experiment. You may be intrigued at the results you find, and indeed might feel them in areas close to your person.

See here young lady … if you were truly a virtuous woman, you wouldn’t tempt the inner demons of sin in men.

— Otis Oracle, Bloom County

I am not in favor of women walking around exposing thier tits either, for that matter. Not that it tempts my inner demons, as you brought up in, again, a quote from someone other than yourself, but simply that it is very difficult to respect a person that chooses to present themselves in that way - male or female.

It is pretty funny that you refer to Bloom County however. I have always considered myself to be very much like Cutter John in my world view and attitudes. Seems to me that you have a hard time thinking for yourself and rely on others to do your speaking. I would respect you if you could address my comments in your own words, and tell me where you think I portray inaccurate assessments of the social and sexual implications relating to how women dress.

The problem is "that's reality" and "you can't have it both ways" doesn't prove anything except that there's a bias taking place that you are accepting as law.

Women, unless you're willing to let us men have our way with you, keep it modest, and know your place! We men know what we're doing and don't need our secretaries telling us how to run the world. Sheesh, what's next? Pretty soon you'll be wanting to vote or something.

bnw OTM as well.

Ahh, Rush. A human being with whom I am deeply ashamed to share a birthdate.

Whatever happened to the Playboy Girls of Indie Rock?

actually blood and sparkles post i mostly agree with but you need to think about 'ok, why do these guys do what they do?' i mean, 'heterosexual men desire women SHOCKAH' plus 'lesbian women resent sexual interest of men SHOCKAH' but there's more to it than that, much more.

Apparently davlo doesn't recognize broad generalizations when he's making them, so English 1A: Reading & Comprehension is in order.

Never once does davlo qualify his criticisms of women by specifying a segment of the female population. The author first mentions "when women complain" etc, and without qualifying "women," the implication is that he means all women. Similarly, he shifts the aim of his statements towards the second person with the parenthetical aside of women (again unqualified) -- not only is he generalizing, but because of the inherent ambiguity of the English second person (as opposed to other Romantic languages, for example), davlo also casts aspersions directly at Ms. Lurex. (It bears noting that one cannot attribute to Ms. Lurex these qualities that the narrator mentions.)

It's this conflation between women who indeed wish to attract attention through physical means and those who don't that proves problematic. (nb. There are of course more categories, but in the interest of this piece, I will deal solely in the binary.) In using one standard to judge all types, and in using such intensifiers as "damn" and "goddamn" to negatively charge words like "hypocritical," the narrator reveals his hostility towards women. Thus, "you're a miserable sexist troglodyte who conflates idiotic standards about personal appearances with pronouncements about female worth."

I did. As others have now noted (thank you Leee), you can't even address or explicate your own. But thank you for allowing us to do so.

NEKOOO!!! :D Oops.

i have so little respect for men that i would actually defend their ability to be feminists

actually blood and sparkles post i mostly agree with but you need to think about 'ok, why do these guys do what they do?' i mean, 'heterosexual men desire women SHOCKAH' plus 'lesbian women resent sexual interest of men SHOCKAH' but there's more to it than that, much more.

lesbian women resent sexual interest of men??? i would have thought they would be kinda indifferent to it. heterosexual men can desire women all they want, obviously, but there are ways of exhibiting your desire that are more acceptable than others. invading someone's personal space or making them feel as if their bodies are a free-for-all is pretty horrible.

Then you had to go all English professor on me to show how smart you are. Well done. Also, thank you for your qualified pyschological evalustion of me and your diagnosis of my "hostility towards women." You are laughable. I am not hostile towards anyone, but you sure have an ability to make assessments about that, while not being able to understand clearly stated comments directed as a response to one person in particular. Amazingly astute of you.

I think what happened yesterday with Janet Jackson completely validates my feelings, by the way. How funny is it that she plans this sel-promotional stunt to bare her breast, while you and your oh-so-sensitive to women's oppresion and suffering friends are in here railing against the very type of objectification that Miss Jackson promulgated on live TV?

When I said that this shock and dismay about being objectified is hypocritical, I was right, and the events of last night help to underscore my point. Poor Janet, she was embarrassed, she was violated...what a crock. She was using her body to draw attention to herself on the cusp of releasing her new album and she used the biggest stage in the world to do it. Why aren't the feminazis attacking her? I voiced my opinion without even posting images like others have done, and I'm the one who's been called a troglodyte and hostile towards women. Truly laughable.

Hardly.

Women in possessing sexual discretion/rights to personal space shockah.

I'm only reading it and it annoys me. People care what they're posting here and it's important to them.

But I don't speak for Di I guess, and I need a cigarette.

Loads of presumption, davlo.

If you've actually read any of the Janet Jackson threads, if there's any vilification of what she did, it's been quiet. To state the obvious, most people here are aware that it was a publicity stunt.

Also, If you don't want to be looked at, wear clothes that don't reveal your flesh.

This speaks for itself.

this is the most interesting thing on this thread, in terms of female performers.

So what's a female performer to do? You can exploit it and attempt to control it (Britney, Madonna, Li'l Kim) or you can try to undermine it and deny it (Phranc, Peaches, Bikini Kill, etc.) Of course, men being wired as they are - easily visually stimulated, pleasure-seeking, seed dispensers - they're capable of fetishizing literally "any* behavior on the part of a woman in the public eye, so even those that try to comment on sexual politics are still going to be judged by those sexual politics. cf all the guys screaming at Kathleen to take her top off at Bikini Kill shows way back when. I don't think you can escape it. You can try to exert a little control over it or laugh at it (which is a way of exerting control) or you can try to do your thing outside of the eyes of men (good luck) - but really all you can do is try to make a personal peace with it. You can't have any control over how other people perceive you, so may as well stop worrying about it, at least on a personal level.

Oh and davlo, fuck off you dipshit.

http://www.thing.de/delektro/pics/rworky.jpg

I know this happens to women all the time in my neighborhood (the Mission in SF). I'm not saying excuse such behavior (altho I find this thread in particular fairly harmless, meself) but if someone's hassling you in your neighborhood or staring at your tits or whatever then by all means tell them to fuck off, stop it, etc. It's just like any other personally irritating or invasive behavior, you're entirely within your rights to stand up for yourself. But as a performer, as with many other things, you gotta just figure out how to best dismiss it mentally, cuz you can't change people or control how they perceive you (or fetishize you or whatever).

In my recent experience of having performed for an audience for the first time(s), I was nervous about how my voice would be perceived. I got a few people complimenting it very strongly, but someone described it as "pretty". That was fine, until I thought about it later, and felt disgusted. If I could be distilled into an essence of something that is "pretty", it would infer feminine, diminutive, harmless, Lilith Fair garbage. A pretty girl singing pretty songs prettily. I had the sudden urge to train my voice to sound much uglier.

This is what I mean about being constantly aware of those perceptions. I do think ultimately you have to just do what feels comfortable for you because there are always going to be assholes pigeonholing you as whatever, but it's still kind of a mental obstacle for me and for a lot of female performers from what I have read and heard.

Not that anyone cares, probably, but so be it.

Then I read that Blood and Sparkles was complimented on her voice, but someone said it was pretty, which led to her feeling disgusted. This is amazing. Someone compliments you, yet you twist it around till it becomes an insult to you and you become disgusted at the objectification of your voice as perpetrated by some filthy troglodyte of a male. Basically, I think the problem with feminists is that they can't relate to men - any men. The very idea of feminism is troubling when you consider that in order to be one, you have to promote one gender over the other. This doesn't leave any room for tolerance or the understanding that men are actually quite different from women. Realize too, that there are some women out there that (horror of horrors) actually LIKE men.

Rather then feminists why not try being Humanists, and promote equality for all people, not just the rights of one gender over the other. Of course, now I'm going to be told how women in the USA are living in an oppressive society and the struggles they have to go through every day because us rotten men treat them so badly. I object to being painted with that broad brush, as someone earlier in the thread called it. But that really is the crux of the matter - feminists don't like men, and they find conspiracies and repression in everything. I'm sure that Oprah, Martha, Hillary, Rosie, Ellen, Cher, Madonna, Britney, Condaleeza, Margaret Thatcher, Queen Beatrice, the late Golda Meir and Indira Gandhi and countless other famous, powerful women are feeling the same exact way. Many of these women could have allowed themselves to be "repressed" and simply bitched about things and about how awful the world and men are.

Please don't feel the need to educate me on women's plights in the world - I know that there are many, many awful injustices to women around the world. It's wrong, I'm against it in all it's forms, and there's no excuse for it. Just don't try to sell me on the notion that women in the US are being held back. That's simply not true.

No one wants to address the issue I raised earlier; that women want to be able to sell whatever they want with sex, parlaying their sexuality into lucrative careers in film, music, whatever. At the very same time, some of you are acting shocked and surprised that men actually notice you. That's the hypocracy I was mentioning. Let the name calling commence...

there are women who like men???!!?1/1111??/ WHY HATH NO ONE INFORMED ME? Dear God in Heaven, that thou alloweth such travesty to be inflicted upon Thy creation!

Damn heteros! Why can't I convert you all?

Damn heteros! Why can't I convert you all?
Hahahahahahahaha!
And whats worse, those heteros keep making....copies of themselves! They're like cockroaches! We'll never get rid of 'em all!

this made me choke on my bagelwich.

also, Shaky Mo Collier very much OTM.

Carry on.

thnx, but I feel my nuanced performance as Cubby the funeral director in Drowning Mona is a true tour de force.

OK why dont you start, by not making claims that women a) dress in less/tighter clothing FOR MENS SAKE ONLY, thereby implying you (men) may decide what is and is not appropriate for us (women) to wear to work or out, ok?

Oh guess what darling - I love men, in fact I have far more male friends than female.

I also have to wear a large heavy coat over my clothes in high summer on the way to clubs, where I wear singlety tops and short skirts BECAUSE IT IS HOT, because if I didnt cover up, men in the street would ogle and yell at me.

Oh but I asked for that didnt I? Sorry, I'll go home then shall I.

this statement worries me shakey. don't you believe men are capable of changing their attitudes? i'm of the opinion that they are and that the fight is worth fighting, that men HAVE to change as much as women if we want a truly equal society. if i didn't believe that, i would probably kill myself right now. i know plenty of guys who don't respond to women in that way - some of them are even heterosexual.

Why do I feel like I've read the argument of this thread play out about fifty times...?

Davlo, what you're saying is something I've run across so frequently, it makes me wonder if this POV is put forth on some wildly popular talk show or book series I'm not aware of.

I'm afraid you don't know very much at all about feminism. It would be nice if you'd investigate a little. Not a lot. I'm not talking go read everyone from de Beauvoir to the third wave, I'm just suggesting that it'd be intellectually honest to at least have some idea of the complexity of the movement you're talking about. It's not my job to educate you, my friend, it's your responsibility to educate yourself.

Beyond that.. my take is that over-the-top gawking, catcalls, whatever, is just straight-up rude. Whatever happened to good manners? Un peu de gentilesse SVP !

You know I get gawked at in my neighborhood whether I am wearing 2 scarves and a wool winter coat or if I am wearing a low cut top. I don't excuse bad behaviour either way.

YES. exactly.

As a purveyor of a certain male-centric viewpoint, let's not dismiss Davlo completely, but instead encourage more clarity from him. I understand his position must be hurtful if you're female (yet, as a male, I can -- admittedly -- never understand that completely), but if we hang in and challenge him instead of making him some kind of pariah, this whole discussion might be unexpectedly illuminated (in other words, all those guys who are taking the obvious anti-sexist line in order to appear enlightened, and all those "let's just inject blatant humour in place of nuance or thought" in order to deflect the thread from whatever trajectory it was headed toward) or illuminating.

In other words, just as on all those ILM race-related threads, how about we drop the simple-minded strawman, or ad hominem, attack, and really strive for some kind of breakthrough?

And I'm usually nowhere near this fucking reasonable-sounding, so ignore me if you want.

There's the minor problem that Davlo set himself up as a strawman and then protested when he was called on it.

And here we have a perfect example of a feminazi.
Turns everything into something negative.
Pathetic.

You can be ridiculed for being too well-endowed as well.

Well, yeah, Ned. But even the existence of a volunteer strawman doesn't preclude ignoring it and getting to the underlying stuff, right?

(But I think this thread's run out of steam now, which is a shame in a way.)

Ideal Scenario: Woman dresses herself in nice clothes and "dolls herself up"; At the singles bar, she is noticed by a suave millionaire that looks like (Brad Pitt|Denzel Washington|George Clooney). Said millionaire approaches her with reverence and says "Hello. You are amazingly beautiful. I'm having a party (on my yacht|at my mansion|in my beach house) tomorrow. Here's my number. Please attend as my date."

Actual Scenario: Woman dresses herself in nice clothes and "dolls herself up"; At the singles bar, she is noticed by a clutch of unemployed, beer-bellied rednecks. Each hash three days growth of beard, terrible taste in clothes and a mug that could scare an infant.
From across the room, one of them yells "Hey, I'd love to bag THAT" and then yells to her "Yo! Honey! Show us Yer Tits!"
This happens every ten minutes until the woman gets sick of it and goes home.

Is this what happens?

I wouldn't say my own experiences were with 'spiteful and jealous' women, but more like ... ew, you freak, get an operation so you can look more like Twiggy.

Disgusted with whom? The distinction is important.

"I had the sudden urge to train my voice to sound much uglier."

Fight it. You (presumably) wouldn't consciously, completely change the way you sing just because one person said "you suck." So how smart would it be to consciously change your voice because someone said it was pretty?

You presumably put in a good deal of rehearsal time before singing in front of an audience, and thus arrived at what your voice sounds like. To consciously change it would prove ... I don't know what it would prove. Nothing good though.

As for looking at women, I don't understand the problem. I look at women all the time. Maybe I'm more discreet than most, but sometimes they see me looking at them, and there's no problem that I know of. (And I'm not an attractive man.)
In my experience, when I hang out with men who say "women complain when I look at them," it turns out they're doing a lot more than looking.

Regardless, I don't take anyone seriously who uses the term 'feminazi' unironically, so, fuck off, whoever the dickwad was that said that. However I would like to present myself PERSONALLY is no one's business. If I want to sound pretty, then I will damn well sound pretty, and if I don't, then I won't. What's wrong with NOT sounding/being pretty, if that's what someone wants to do? It's an aesthetical choice for me, but it has gender connotations, is I guess what I am getting at.

I love Neko Case to death, and her voice is extremely 'pretty'. I'm not an ideologue or deadly fixed in my viewpoints, that is just a single observation of how the prevailing stereotype can be mentally 'oppressive', or, not to use such loaded terminology, a bit of a block. In order to explain this I'd have to go further in depth than I am comfortable with here. Gender issues always start out simple and grow more and more complicated in my mind. Which is why I rarely debate this shit anymore... I'd like to think it doesn't matter, but then things happen that shove it in my face again. Well, it was nice living in ignorance again for a little while.

Yes Ms. Lurex, let us rule the world.

Blood and sparkles and Shakey Mo OTM. I've had plenty of debates with feminists and "feminists", and it often seems like the very term itself can sometimes contribute to the problem, via semantic/cultural misunderstandings, whatever. Some men (and some women, too, for related but maybe slightly different reasons) have a kneejerk reaction to the word (I think they literally hear the word "feminazi" inside their heads), which makes the whole thing a non-starter. There's certainly a defensiveness that comes with the topic, which is frustrating because, for women at least, this isn't just some neat academic debate, it's, well, real life. (Duh.)

i like how lots of people: daria, shakey and blood and sparkles are pointing out how varied and complex feminismS (the all important plural) and gender issues are. very astute.

David Berman was once asked in an interview who he thought the hottest female musician out there was. He apologized and said he instantly lost attraction to a woman wielding an instrument.

uh, because the environments are totally different, groups of people were isolated linguistically and culturally from other people...? The kind of specific trope you're talking about is completely socially constructed. And obviously different cultures developed in different ways for a vast variety of reasons - the material facts of each culture's existence were often quite different from those of their neighbors, thus different mores would develop, different habits, etc. But the fact that there are TWO genders, male and female, is larger than anything culturally constructed, and that's what I was talking about. The mechanics of sexual reproduction (ie, penis goes in vagina out comes baby) - that's a result of the biological selection finding the most expedient way to perpetuate the species. If you want a much more detailed and cogent analysis than I'm capable of providing here of how these two things inter-relate (biology vs. culturally learned behaviors) read Susan Blackmore's "The Meme Machine".

http://www.mamalion.com/mamaalbum.html

"This is my scene and it's FREAKING ME OUT!"

...and the movie, of course, is among my favorite films of all time. Criterion Collection DVD coming soon you know!

There couldn't be a more appropriate film or filmmaker for this thread, either. Jeez!

Did Tori Amos steal the breastfeeding-a-baby-animal schtick from Mama Lion?

I don't get David Berman's quote, either... what's he on about? I'm such a fan of his, but I don't get it.

Some good did come from this thread! Mama Lion! Long Live Mama Lion!

I don't like being hit on in a smug fashion, told I am beautiful, cliches like come look at my etchings, etc. I will take the compliment or whatever and smile, but I wouldn't date anyone who approached me in that fashion, either male *or* female, as it simply isn't my style. But apparently some women do like smarmy smug dudes/dudettes as long as they have money, or so I have heard. But yeah I'm not really sure what the point was.

(What's also fun is when you tell a guy you don't date men and that doesn't shut them up... or they think you will go for it as long as they make it a threesome, because dykes will sleep with anything with a c*** of course. Good times. I have lots of those stories.)

The Mama Lion picture was pretty cool btw.

to Blood and Sparkles:
(if you think that's wayyy too much of a stretch, then you probably don't understand that sexual orientation is usually not fixed in stone or absolute.)
Sexual orientation was not a factor in the scenario. The hypothetical woman in the scenario was hetero. Though with some tweaking, she could've been a lesbian...but factoring in an alternate version of the same two scenarios would've been needlessly complex, and would've gone completely off on a tangent.
But I guess it could've been like this:
Ideal Scenario: Woman dresses herself in nice clothes and "dolls herself up"; At the singles bar, she is noticed by a suave millionairess that looks like (J.Lo|Courtney Cox|Beyoncé Knowles). Said millionairess approaches her with reverence and says "Hello. You are amazingly beautiful. I'm having a party (on my yacht|at my mansion|in my beach house) tomorrow. Here's my number. Please attend as my date."

Yeah. That is somewhat smamy as a pickup line. Ah, well. Its meant as a very shallow fantasy anyway.

...cliches like come look at my etchings
Damn! (note to self. Throw away etchings.)

I have etchings but I've never used them to pick up chicks. Maybe I should though... hmm.

ok, I'm done being silly.

http://www.genesisp-orridge.com/

m.

the ladies that had a negative view of the whole thread (don't read the damned thing then?) jumped on davlo straight away, and never once tried to get behind what he was saying. sure, it was a little clumsy, but then he probably doesn't talk to people all that often so be patient.

although he tried to make valid points (and a lot of what he was sayin made sense to me) you refused to try and debate them rationally, and from what i could see it didn't reflect too well on yourselves. and even if this thread is sexist, does it really give you the right to hijack it and roundly abuse anyone trying to compare hottie rock chicks? i don't think so. maybe you should go start a feminist thread. then see how you like it if guys bust into it talkin bout chicks with big tits. as it is, the headin on the topic is now blatantly false advertising, and i'm going to sue.

on to the guys that were queuing up to be so hostile towards davlo- grow up. maybe one in a hundred (straight) guys would be genuine in the sentiments you profess. maybe another thirty percent would pretend to agree with them in an attempt to appear new age sensitive perfect femiguy. this is because you want to get laid. i know it. you know it. and believe me, the ladies definitely know it.

the other sixty percent would probably see where he is coming from (privately, obviously, cos we're not fuckin kamikaze or anything). the reason these guys feel threatened by the gender battle is because guys like you will trash everything they say, just because you want to look clever so you can get some pussy. the reason that women are winning the gender debate hands down is because they don't sell out other women to impress men, and also because trying to argue the male corner in any way without rolling over and waving a white flag automatically disqualifies you.

honest and open debate, boys. let's all put our dicks away, shall we?

oh, and kate bush. obviously.

Still, to this day, I think maybe I should have.

I'd say 99% of men objectify women at times, to different extents. That doesn't mean we agree and identify with every case of any other guy objectifying women at any time.

- I objectify women. Everyone objectifies women - and men - at times. However, my definition of "objectify" might differ from some others' who are just talking about looking at these women as prospective bed-mates. People who villify men for it are deceiving themselves, to some degree.

Though it's clearly something one should try and resist if it's chronic, yeah, it is natural to succumb to it from time to time. Great tits are great tits; sad tits are somewhat sad, yes.

Suggestions:
- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.

never mind then.

By the way, Neko Case has large boobs.

Also Divine, if manboobs count.

Not really.

(sorry)

http://www.efmf.ab.ca/005.galleries/005-2003/images/Saturday/Saturday_21.jpg

I have mixed feeling about objectification - but I think this above is pretty OTM. I think we women like to think of ourselves as victims to everything but don't realize how we take part MAJORLY in a lot of this. And the fact is that women are gorgeous. I can't blame women or men for noticing that fact. I only wish that women like patti smith and all the other women who don't pimp out their sexuality were seen as eye-candy too. Its just as lame to see some women as asexual just b/c they don't fit some mould or actually make good music. It seems like men don't notice you unless you're spellin it out for them. I like to think that women are the master objectifiers b/c we pay way more attention to detail and we can handle many concepts at once.

i mean they are all attractive pretty much and no one even talks about their looks that much. that is kinda weird, no?

I don't think Debbie was particularly "busty", though.

Are we talking about the same Debbie Harry here?

http://www.ephemeroi.com/stuff/2003/front/031021-lydia.jpg

http://home.iae.nl/users/maes/cave/pix/Nicklyd2.jpg

Always have, always will.

Even so, to this day I have an undying, deep, and abiding affection for Debbie Harry and the music of Blondie.

(start that buttocks thread already Drew)