People who say "its not his fault, he's just of a different generation" - considerate and incisive or just clueless apologists?

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Prompted by the Big Ron-Jimmy Hill discussion.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Louis C.K. has a bit about when people excuse racists by saying "he grew up on a farm." It's really funny.

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Leaving aside the fact that several 60+ people I could name would rightly be offended by the phrase "lazy fucking thick nigger" and would think that Atkinson, Hill etc were utter cunts, is there any weight to this argument? Does background excuse bigotry? Is it necessarily as bad if you have grown up on, say, a hillside in Norway without ever having seen a black person? When you're talking about an abstraction rather than a reality? Or is this even worse?

I think Hill has no comprehension whatsoever of WHY the word "nigger" is offensive in that context. I can only put this down to three possible scenarios -

1. he has had his head in the clouds for the past thirty years.
2. he is an idiot.
3. both.

To blame his generation or upbringing into it seems disigenuous to me.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

perhaps he has had his head in a hillside in norway for the last thirty years.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it's pretty stupid to make moral judgments about people without taking into account their background, yes.

But it all hinges on what 'making moral judgments' and 'taking into account' means. These kind of issues tend to get bogged down in problems of language, and as such are probably best dealt with by continental philosophers who pick over language rather than radio phone ins. The repetititiveness of the arguments does my head in a bit.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

This is where I go "I'm not excusing Bigotron's actions" etc.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

i think using background to excuse behaviour gets nowhere.

but, what about contextualization? i think it helps us to place things in context, and understand why people say and do different things etc.

or, to put it another way, there was a level of shock and disappointment about atkinsons behaviour, but what if ryan giggs had said it?

― gareth (gareth), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe Jimmy Hill listened to a lot gangsta rap. Risking accusations of apologism again here but in the context of Atkinson's quote, 'nigger' is arguably the least insulting thing levelled at Desailly, tho this can only really be verified by Atkinson himself (which he effectively proceeded to do by offering examples of how he doesn't have it in for 'the blacks' actually).

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Ryan Giggs' father is black, which might skew the judgement on that one. If it was, say, Frank Lampard, people would be considerably less sympathetic than they are even to Ron (see Lee Bowyer, for example).

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 13 May 2004 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Ryan Giggs' father is black

I'm amazed and intrigued.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 13 May 2004 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

He doesn't really get on with him either. I don't know if it's cause he's black.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 May 2004 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

If you Google 'Giggs father' you should get the lowdown, Steve. Although the first hit is for some loveable singalong racist banter on behalf of Bolton Wanderers fans (on the same page as SUPER MICHAEL RICKETTS no less!)

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 13 May 2004 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought that Norway was a particually flat country and popular with cyclists.

― Paul Kelly (kelly), Friday, 14 May 2004 02:59 (twenty-two years ago)

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