Swift Boat Partisan Smear Campaign Circle Jerking

in a perfect world, this would bite bushco in the ass ... alas.

"Whatever"

QUOTE OF THE MONTH!

John Kerry's assertion about being in Cambodia during Christmas of 1968--"seared--seared" in his mind is almost certainly untrue, whether intentional or not. The Times article acknowledges this, and it gave the story legs it otherwise wouldn't have--it's been the focus of the Swift Boat losers all week.

Kerry continues to use his experience in Vietnam as a significant focus of his campaign--doesn't it seem logical that his opponents would turn their attention to it? If Kerry wants to start focusing on his leadership in the Senate (or anything but the war) then maybe his opponents will, too. Why does the medal-chucking Kerry keep bragging about his time in Vietnam, anyway? I have never understood this tact.

As for those dolts who are too lazy to be informed of their vote people who are "still on the fence or who haven't voted previously", I wouldn't worry that much about them Eisbar. They fall for the same shit on both sides of the fence, of which there's been plenty.

(the movie was gideon's day btw. oh and the priest eventually thwarts a murder attempt in his church by knocking down some thugs and thus earns the awe of the neighborhood boys.)

the fact that he could serve on a swift boat and come back alive, much less only slightly incoherent in his memories, is being a bit overlooked here.

Nothing against Kerry, but coming back alive often had a lot to do with luck more than skill in a Swift boat.

I really wish the Kerry team would be filing libel charges rather than proposing censorship.

I think it would be better for Kerry, if he is going to file charges, to wait until after the campaign. Or, if he wins, he can just do what Dubya does and round up all these guys and put 'em in a navy brig in South Carolina without access to council.

Both Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Lonsdale had publicly lauded Mr. Kerry in the past. But the book, Mr. Brinkley's "Tour of Duty," while it burnished Mr. Kerry's reputation, portrayed the two men as reckless leaders whose military approach had led to the deaths of countless sailors and innocent civilians. Several Swift boat veterans compared Mr. Hoffmann to the bloodthirsty colonel in the film "Apocalypse Now" - the one who loves the smell of Napalm in the morning.

The two men were determined to set the record, as they saw it, straight.

"It was the admiral who started it and got the rest of us into it," Mr. Lonsdale said.

xpost

You sure you wanna defend these guys?

I wouldn't have posted Sludge if he wouldn't have directly referred to Salon.com. And I wouldn't call him one of my sources, seeing as I've probably been to his site less than 10 times in my life.

As for #1, "libel" is a more forceful suggestion that doesn't suggest oblique illigitmacy. "Libel" says, "Lay your cards on the table, punk. We've got the facts on our side and we're not gonna take it anymore. We're going to make you our bitch in a public forum."

Followed by, "Cunts."

A dem strategist on another board said that they're going to 'let the media handle it'.

MATTHEWS: Larry Thurlow, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I admire your service, certainly. Let me ask you, sir, about the quote that you have in this ad. It says—and these are your words, speaking them in the advertisement—“When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry.” Why do you say that?

LARRY THURLOW, ANTI-KERRY SWIFT BOAT VETERAN: Mr. Matthews, the main reason I say that is because it became apparent early on that John Kerry had a master plan that went far beyond the service in the swift boats, and because of the fact that he was trying to engineer a record, so to speak, for himself, he was not a trustworthy member of a very tightly-knit unit that counted on each other at every second. And once it became apparent that he had this plan that kind of excluded what was required of us at certain times, it became apparent to me that you could not count on him.

(later)

MATTHEWS: ... the Bronze Star. The Bronze Star, that you deserve the Bronze Star, you were awarded the Bronze Star, fair enough, and you say you were not under enemy fire. You‘re now saying that John Kerry doesn‘t deserve the Bronze Start because he wasn‘t under enemy fire. Aren‘t you both in the same boat? Didn‘t you both do about the same thing, both get same award? And why are you complaining that he doesn‘t deserve it, if you deserved it?

THURLOW: I felt like I got the award because I saved some people‘s lives and saved the boat. What I say...

MATTHEWS: Well, he saved Rassmann‘s life, according to Rassmann‘s own account.

THURLOW: OK...

MATTHEWS: Why doesn‘t he deserve the award?

THURLOW: Well, I—I don‘t—I‘m not quibbling about the award.
I‘m saying he lied about the...

MATTHEWS: Oh, yes, you are, sir!

(later)

MATTHEWS: You are out here in an advertisement saying, quote, “When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry.”

THURLOW: That‘s exactly right.

MATTHEWS: That‘s a pretty strong—because of what are you saying this?

THURLOW: Because he had this master plan that was...

MATTHEWS: You got—give me an example.

THURLOW: ... to promote his...

MATTHEWS: OK, let‘s to go your theory of the plan. Have you seen it written down? Have you heard him tell his account to someone? How do you know, in any real way, he had this plan?

THURLOW: Because of the fact that he engineered three Purple Heart incidences that allowed him to go home after he spent about one third of his tour there.

MATTHEWS: But that‘s your account of what happened. He was there for four months.

THURLOW: That‘s exactly right.

MATTHEWS: He did win the three Purple Hearts. He did get the Bronze and the Silver. And you say he had some plan to get an award as a battle hero ahead of time, but you can‘t tell me how you know he had this plan.

THURLOW: I know he had this plan because of what happened not only then but after the fact.

MATTHEWS: Did you have a plan to win the Bronze Star? You won the Bronze Star. Did you have a plan?

THURLOW: No, in fact, I didn‘t...

MATTHEWS: Why is winning the Bronze Star...

THURLOW: I didn‘t apply for it.

MATTHEWS: Why is winning the Bronze Star evidence of having had a plan to win one? I don‘t get it.

THURLOW: Well, I—we‘re not even talking about him having a plan to win the Bronze Star.

MATTHEWS: Can you honestly tell me now, sir, that you could swear in open court that you know that John Kerry, when he was a lieutenant JG in the same theater you were in had some plan for winning medals? Do you know that for a fact?

THURLOW: OK. In other words, present evidence that he had this plan?

MATTHEWS: Yes.

THURLOW: Of course, I couldn‘t.

MATTHEWS: Well, what...

THURLOW: I‘m basing it on my observations.

MATTHEWS: These are after-the-fact observations. You say he had a plan ahead of time to make himself a war hero to get elected to office.

THURLOW: I‘m saying that he had a plan that included not only being a war hero but getting an early out.

MATTHEWS: But you admit you have no tangible evidence.

THURLOW: I have my own personal observations.

MATTHEWS: Of what?

THURLOW: And you‘re right, it is not tangible evidence.

MATTHEWS: OK, so you don‘t. Let me ask you about...

THURLOW: I‘m not in a court of law here.

(later)

MATTHEWS: Should the president of the United States, who‘s running against John Kerry, have the—does he have the right, as we speak, as you see it, to raise this issue in debate, if it comes up?

THURLOW: Does the president...

MATTHEWS: Is he allowed to talk about it?

THURLOW: You talking about President Bush?

MATTHEWS: That‘s right.

THURLOW: Does he have the right to bring it up?

MATTHEWS: Yes.

THURLOW: President Bush wasn‘t there. So why would he bring it up?

MATTHEWS: No, no. I‘m talking about, is he allowed to raise what you‘ve said about your fellow officer? Is he allowed to go into the debate and say, I hear from your fellow officers that you were not the hero you claim to be? Is that a fair enough tack for the president to take in this campaign? Is it a legitimate issue? You‘re raising it as a campaign issue. I‘m asking you, if it‘s a campaign issue, why can‘t both candidates talk about it? That‘s all I‘m asking.

THURLOW: No, I‘m not—I‘m raising the campaign—the reason I‘ve raised this issue is because I want the American people to hear the truth that I know...

MATTHEWS: Right, but you‘re...

THURLOW: ... and then let them make a decision.

MATTHEWS: But isn‘t it fair to say you‘re doing this because John Kerry is a candidate for president?

THURLOW: Yes.

MATTHEWS: OK.

(later)

MATTHEWS: Well, of course. Of course. That‘s fair enough. But is it fair enough for the president to counter-charge and say he doesn‘t believe John Kerry‘s the hero he claimed to be at the Democratic convention?

THURLOW: I don‘t think so because he wasn‘t there. He doesn‘t have the evidence I do.

MATTHEWS: Is he allowed to believe you?

THURLOW: He‘s allowed to believe whoever he wants.

MATTHEWS: In other words, you want everybody in the country...

THURLOW: He‘s an American citizen.

MATTHEWS: ... to believe what you‘re saying right now, Mr. Thurlow...

THURLOW: Certainly.

MATTHEWS: ... but not to let the president of the United States count on it as a campaign issue.

THURLOW: That‘s entirely up to him. I‘m telling you...

MATTHEWS: Oh, it is up to him. OK. I‘m (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Why do you think it‘s OK for a person who didn‘t serve in Vietnam to criticize someone who did?

THURLOW: I did serve in Vietnam.

MATTHEWS: I‘m asking you about the president. You said it‘s up to him. If it‘s up to the president whether to attack John Kerry for being in Vietnam, what did he over there, is it OK with you, that a guy who didn‘t serve criticizes a guy who did?

THURLOW: Well, I don‘t know that he has criticized...

MATTHEWS: As a veteran.

THURLOW: As a veteran?

MATTHEWS: I‘m just asking you a simple question. Is this a campaign issue for both candidates to contend with or isn‘t it?

THURLOW: Well, it‘s a campaign...

MATTHEWS: Or is it just you against John Kerry as a side shot at one of the candidates?

THURLOW: ... issue that John Kerry ran out there. And the thing I think is that the president wouldn‘t have any—you know, what would he base...

MATTHEWS: OK, let me ask you this...

THURLOW: ... the statements on?

MATTHEWS: ... very simply. If President Bush the other—is asked a question, he come out and says, Well, I hear from this fellow officer, in fact, he was the commander of the swift boat, the head of the team—he says this guy didn‘t deserve all the acclaim he got at the convention. Would that be OK with you?

THURLOW: Well, it would be OK with me if he wanted to do it, but why would he want to do it?

MATTHEWS: To defeat his opponent.

THURLOW: He‘s got—he‘s got...

MATTHEWS: The same reason you want to defeat this guy. You don‘t think he should be president.

THURLOW: Well—that‘s exactly right. I don‘t think he should be president.

MATTHEWS: Well, that‘s fair enough. There‘s nothing wrong with it. Say it—you have a million times in this country a free opportunity to say so. I‘m asking you...

THURLOW: You‘re—you‘re exactly right.

MATTHEWS: ... should George Bush be allowed to raise this issue in the campaign?

THURLOW: If he wants to, he...

MATTHEWS: Otherwise, it‘s just you.

THURLOW: ... certainly should be able to.

MATTHEWS: In other words, it‘s OK, for you, for a guy who didn‘t serve in Vietnam to attack a guy who did? That‘s all I want to know.

THURLOW: Well, I don‘t think a guy that didn‘t serve in Vietnam should attack some guy‘s record that did serve in Vietnam, if he has no personal knowledge of it.

(later)

MATTHEWS: The problem is, you haven‘t produced any personal knowledge about this plan you talked about, Mr. Thurlow, and that‘s the problem tonight.

THURLOW: No, what I—what I...

MATTHEWS: This plan has not been authenticated. That‘s the concern I have. Anyway, thanks for coming on.

WASHINGTON - The chief critic of John Kerry's military record told President Nixon in 1971 that he had been in Cambodia in a swift boat during the Vietnam War — a claim at odds with his recent statements that he was not.

"I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border," said John E. O'Neill in a conversation that was taped by the former president's secret recording system. The tape is stored at the National Archives in College Park, Md.

In an interview with The Associated Press on Wednesday, O'Neill did not dispute what he said to Nixon, but insisted he was never actually in Cambodia.

"I think I made it very clear that I was on the border, which is exactly where I was for three months. I was about 100 yards from Cambodia," O'Neill said in clarifying the June 16, 1971, conversation with Nixon.

Chad Clanton, a spokesman for the Democratic presidential candidate, said the tape "is just the latest in a long line of lies and false statements from a group trying to smear John Kerry's military service. Again, they're being proven liars with their own words. It's time for President Bush to stand up and specifically condemn this smear."

O'Neill served in Vietnam from 1969-70 and says in a recent book that he took command of Kerry's swift boat after the future Massachusetts senator returned home from the war.

O'Neill has emerged as a leading figure in the attacks on Kerry's war record. He is co-author of "Unfit for Command," which accuses Kerry of lying about his record, and is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has aired two television commercials harshly critical of Kerry.

In the book, O'Neill wrote that Kerry's accounts of having been in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968 "are complete lies."

"... Kerry was never ordered into Cambodia by anyone and would have been court-martialed had he gone there," he wrote. O'Neill wrote that the Navy positioned its own craft along the border area to make sure no American vessels strayed across the border from Vietnam.

In an interview Sunday on ABC's "This Week" O'Neill said: "Our boats didn't go north of, only slightly north of Sedek," which he said was about 50 miles from the Cambodian border.

Kerry's campaign has acknowledged that he may not have been in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968, as he has previously stated. The campaign says Kerry does recall being on patrol along the Cambodia-Vietnam border on that date, although it's unclear if he crossed into Cambodia.

Referring to the tape of the Oval Office meeting with Nixon, O'Neill criticized Kerry for making claims, including in the Senate, that he was in Cambodia.

"I've never represented on the floor of the Senate, or told people 50 times like John Kerry did that I was in Cambodia. That never happened. And I don't think he was ever there either," O'Neill said.

The snippet of taped conversation surfaced after more than a week of controversy surrounding claims that Kerry lied about his actions in a war in which he won five military medals. The Democrat and his allies have vigorously attacked such claims as a smear, laboring to undermine the charges as well as cast doubt on the men who are making them.

For his part, Kerry accused the swift boat group of being a "front group" that was doing Bush's dirty work.

The Bush campaign denies any involvement with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

___

Associated Press writer Jennifer C. Kerr contributed to this report.

http://www.film.queensu.ca/Critical/Photos/Apoc/Apoc600.JPG

Thanks for the pointer hstencil.

Kerry applied for the medals, if I understand it correctly, they'd just turn around and say that he applied for medals he knew he shouldn't have.

Damn Liberals

Reconstructing one day on a Swift boat

Posted: Saturday September 4th, 2004, 9:30 PM
Last Updated: Saturday September 4th, 2004, 9:30 PM
Bill Means needed to talk to me, he said. Right away.

I didn't ask why; I figured it had something to do with Vietnam. We'd talked briefly a couple of months earlier about the war and about Swift boats. Thirty-five years ago, as a Navy seaman, Means had patrolled the southern coastline of the South China Sea and the mangrove-dense rivers of the country's interior -- 12 months in all, mostly spent in the pilot house of one of those 55-foot, aluminum-hulled Navy fighting boats.

About a week ago, we made tentative plans to talk again. Then I didn't hear from him until he called abruptly, urgency in his voice.

We sat down together and, agitated and emotional, he laid it all out for me.

It bothered him, seeing Vietnam brought back into play as a political game piece. The left had done it to war veterans three decades ago. Returning servicemen had been vilified -- spat upon, in fact, as if they'd been the architects of U.S. foreign policy rather than just the young men and women obligated by law and duty to carry it out.

Now the right had seized upon the Vietnam War, too -- specifically the role, in uniform and out, of Sen. John Kerry. And to Means, it seemed just as wrong.

Means, a 55-year-old investigator for several Bakersfield law firms, was particularly annoyed by the words of one retired admiral. Roy F. "Latch" Hoffman, one of the co-founders of the pro-George W. Bush group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, had publicly criticized Kerry, a former Swift boat commander, for having brought back stories about alleged war crimes by U.S. forces -- often carried out, Kerry said in 1971, "with the full awareness of officers at all levels."

Seemed to him, Means said, his own Swift boat crew had come close to committing a war crime themselves one day. A senior officer, hitching a ride up the coast aboard their Swift boat, had ordered the crew to fire on a small group of unarmed Vietnamese fishermen working their nets in unrestricted waters, Means said. The boat's commanding officer had refused to comply.

Was that the way the boat's commander remembered the incident too, all these years later? Means had to know.

So he got on the Internet and hunted down Thomas W.L. "Tad" McCall, the retired Navy captain who'd commanded Means' boat, PCF 88, as a newly minted ensign. Means called him.

Not only did McCall remember the day in question, and that confrontation off the coast of South Vietnam, he remembered the name of the officer who had given the command to shoot: "Latch" Hoffman himself, then a Navy captain in charge of the entire Swift boat task force in Vietnam.

The next morning Means told me the whole story. Then I called McCall myself.

McCall, now 60, remembers March 14, 1969, because it was his 25th birthday. He'd only been running a Swift boat for a few weeks, having arrived in Vietnam in January 1969, the same month as Means.

At the time, McCall said, the Navy was having trouble finding qualified officers to command those hazardous-duty patrol boats; lieutenant j.g.'s were in increasingly short supply. McCall, the son of Oregon's sitting governor, Republican Tom McCall, was only an ensign. That, the Navy was beginning to realize, would have to do.

"I was really green," said McCall, who joined the Navy as an enlisted man in 1967 and retired in March 1992 as a captain and a JAG, or military attorney.

McCall's crew was supposed to be off duty that day. But McCall was told Hoffman needed a ride up the coast to the base at Nha Trang to visit a seriously wounded Navy SEAL.

"I was excited, nervous and kind of pleased we were going to get to take the commander of the task force up the coast, an hour and a half each way," McCall said. "A beautiful trip, an honor for us. The crew didn't think it was an honor, though. They thought it was a pain in the butt."

Hoffman got to the boat at mid-morning, a distinguished-looking officer in brown camouflage.

From the start, Hoffman made it clear the trip would be no pleasure cruise. He wanted to search every Vietnamese boat they passed, it seemed. McCall protested mildly; he knew many of those boats from having patrolled those same waters almost daily.

Then Hoffman set his attention on a small cluster of fishing boats, four small vessels with perhaps 10 fishermen, about 1,000 yards offshore. "We had seen them in the water there many, many times," McCall said. "They were fishing at a good fishing place ... in traditional fishing waters. 'Another patrol is coming up behind us soon,' I told him. 'We're taking you for a ride, not patrolling.'"

But Hoffman ordered a crewman to hail the fishing boats on a bullhorn. The fishermen didn't respond. So Hoffman ordered a crewman to fire his M-16 in their direction, splashing the water around them. The fishermen, perhaps not understanding what they were supposed to do, still didn't respond.

"Shoot closer," McCall remembers Hoffman saying.

"I can't shoot closer, sir, I'll hit them," the crewman said.

"Well, do it," Hoffman said.

The meaning of those words were clear to everyone aboard PCF 88, McCall said. Hoffman was ordering the fishing party destroyed, the fishermen killed.

The officers argued policy; McCall realized it was ultimately his call.

He ordered his men to stand down, leave the fishermen alone and move on. He sent Hoffman below deck, and the captain, cursing, complied.

"From that day on," said Means, who witnessed the exchange from his post at the wheel, "McCall was our hero."

When McCall got back to the base at Cam Ranh Bay, he was told he would receive an administrative punishment -- a 30-day benching known as being "in hack," for which official records were not kept.

"There was no animosity afterward," McCall said, noting that when Hoffman left Vietnam, the sailors at Cam Ranh Bay threw him a party.

"I think, if I remember right, he gave me a hug," McCall said. "He was a rascal, a colorful guy. We had an amicable parting of the ways. I just thought his leadership at the time was misguided."

Hoffman did not return my e-mail message asking for his comment.

After leaving the Navy, McCall served as a deputy assistant secretary of the Air Force, a civilian post, from 1994 to 2001. Since that time he has worked as a consultant to the Army on environmental matters.

He has been approached by representatives of the Kerry campaign about telling his story, he said. He's not particularly political, so he's not interested.

Means feels the same -- to a point.

"We weren't Republicans and Democrats on those Swift boats," he said. "We were (expletive) trying to stay alive. (Things) happened, but we can't go back and reconstruct it from 35 years ago."

But if others, whatever their motivation, insist on trying to do so now, Means is willing to try too. In his view, his commanding officer did the right thing 35 years ago by speaking up. Speaking up himself, Bill Means believes, is the least he can do today.

Navy probes Kerry medals
By Julian Coman
Columbus, Ohio
September 6, 2004

The Pentagon has ordered an investigation into the awarding of Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's five Vietnam War decorations.

The highly unusual inquiry is to be carried out by the Inspector-General's Office of the US Navy. Senator Kerry served as a Swift boat captain for four months in 1968, serving two tours of duty in Vietnam...

...But to the consternation of campaign strategists, the navy has agreed to a request by Judicial Watch, a bipartisan lobby group, for a full inquiry.

Judicial Watch wants the navy to report before the elections, but navy officials are so far refusing to give a timetable for the inquiry.

In an August letter to the Pentagon, group president Tom Fitton requested an inquiry into the "determination and final disposition of the awards granted to Lieutenant (junior grade) John Forbes Kerry, US Naval Reserve", in response to the Swift boat veterans' allegations.

Confirming the inquiry, a naval spokesman said: "It is the responsibility of all personnel to correct errors in official records."

Kerry is being punked repeatedly and as far as I can tell, nearly consensually. Unless we get to a "have you no sense of decency?" moment, the water is swirling down the shitter.

So that means that Kerry and Dubya are going to face off in a pistol duel, resulting in the latter instead taking down Bush père?

http://www.william-petersen.com/skulls/skulls13.jpg
"Pacey, I feel your pain"