[META] Soul Music

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Soul - 60s and 70s soul in particular - is surely the least-discussed major pop genre on ILM both in specifics and in general. But I don't know of anyone here who'd say they disliked it. So why the (relative) neglect?

(Dispute my starting point if you like)

(Or just say something interesting about it.)

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 08:23 (twenty-two years ago)

"So why the (relative) neglect?"

Hornby?

― thom west (thom w), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 08:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Everyone knows it's great so no one feels any imperative to discuss?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 08:53 (twenty-two years ago)

The 70s stuff is good but the 60s stuff is awful

― dave q, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 08:54 (twenty-two years ago)

But with most other music ILM has a healthy suspicion of canonicity - we always want to thrash out the classic status of 60s or 70s rock (almost 100 posts on a Bob Seger thread!), why do we shy away from thinking about soul?

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 08:57 (twenty-two years ago)

1)Because most people on here are not old enough to remember when soul (as opposed to R&B/nu-soul/'urban' whatever) was thriving chart-wise.

2)Because MOST people here are indie-centric or started being interested in music via indie. Natural branching out from here is towards electronica/dance or maybe the rock canon. Soul is a step or two too far - likewise jazz.

3) There isn't really a canon to help people get started. Despite protestations to the contrary we LIKE lists.

I love soul and have a quite a lot of Motown, Northern, 70's pop soul, some Stax etc, but I feel like I'm only just scratching the surface. I'm fairly clueless when it comes to Al Green, southern soul, Kent etc.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:15 (twenty-two years ago)

- lack of specialist knowledge? (eg, northern soul threads always seem very popular, presumably because of the scene's UK cultural legacy.) 'mainstream 60s/70s soul' isn't a genre so many people will have paid 'specialist' attention to?

- it's not a very rockist genre, ha. ie singles more important than albums, the hit-factory idea, same songs covered many times by different artists. doesn't have the same meaty canon of albums and undisputed greats that we like to get our teeth into?

x-post with Dr C.

― pete b. (pete b.), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:18 (twenty-two years ago)

dunno about the indie centricity being an issue-i'd say most people here have at least a few soul albums
and i'd say there are far more jazz threads than soul...
its an interesting question though

― robin (robin), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Dr. C's largely OTM, although there are a couple of points he raises that I'm not too sure about and which I suspect may be linked:

".... likewise jazz." but we do discuss jazz quite regularly don't we? OK, fundamentally you're right that most of us are largely indie-oriented but we do still seem happy to discuss jazz occasionally - and there are several people who here who are clearly extremely knowledgable on the subject.

"There isn't really a canon to help people get started." well, actually there is a canon, isn't there? It just happens to be predominantly singles-based rather than album-based and tends to involve a lot of compilations; whereas, being indie-oriented, most of us are predominantly album-oriented.

Even with reggae (which as a genre was probably even more singles-oriented than soul) and psychedelia we seem to prefer to think of / discuss it in terms of albums, even when a great many of those "albums" are in fact compilations which have been cunningly disguised as albums.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Plus soul is all about singles (at least until What's Going On?) and therefore anti-rockist and as most of us aren't old enough to have been around buying Booker T or Wilson Pickets' singles we have to have a rockist approach to it (or any music from before our time?) which makes our heads go hot and shakey.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:38 (twenty-two years ago)

So the follow-up question is - can anything be done about it? Should 'anything' be 'done' about it?

There was a great thread on Bernadette by the Four Tops once.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Mine was an X-post with Stewart. We both basically said the same thing, I think. Non-rockists may object, but it's the album that has longevity over the single, just cos singles don't get bought as much.

X-post with Tom; no, because ILM is a democracy, and if people decide they want to talk about soul they'll start threads.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Compilation CDs of soul music sell very well indeed.

Nick I'm not saying that I as administrator should mandate one soul thread a day - I'm saying that, assuming people might like to talk about it, what is the best way of getting opinions out of them? Being controversial? Being funny? Encouraging listmaking?

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:43 (twenty-two years ago)

This! Favourite soul song.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:45 (twenty-two years ago)

because there are connotations of the genre itself which somehow act to discourage further discussion?
'lady, if you have to ask...'

(i cannot believe i am the only 40+ here who has never liked the stuff, either...
haha cue 'snowy - do you hate ~~fun~~ misery?')

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:45 (twenty-two years ago)

".... can anything be done about it? Should 'anything' be 'done' about it?"

I guess a good starting point would be to challenge the underlying assumption that compilations (and particularly various-artist compilations) aren't all necessarily by definition embarrassing "Now That's What I Call The Lamest Idea In The World.... Evah!!! (Vol. 854)" examples of how shallow we and our understanding / appreciation of a particular genre are, but can be the absolute pinnacles of that genre.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

This compilation is FAR from embarassing.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

One of the problems with discussing compilations (which I'm not embarrassed by) is that there are so many This Is Soul / Classic Soul / The Best Soul Album Evah comps out there that you can't start from an assumption of common ground.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Here's another thought: the friends I've had who've been big into soul often have listened to it pretty much to the exclusion of everything else. The obsessive 'soul boy' type probably wouldn't be that interested in ILM's setup as a discussion area.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:56 (twenty-two years ago)

''".... likewise jazz." but we do discuss jazz quite regularly don't we? OK, fundamentally you're right that most of us are largely indie-oriented but we do still seem happy to discuss jazz occasionally - and there are several people who here who are clearly extremely knowledgable on the subject.''

well kind of. Even though this place is called I love music, which should include all types of music being discussed in an equal amount...well, as it turns out this place reflects the average age of most of its posters: and most of its posters listen to pop and indie.

I think with jazz there are a few posters who know lots abt it and are prepared to start threads on it but ILM is actually favoured towards the 'free' end of things (jazz post '58) and there are 5-10 posters who start threads, and more importantly, are not that bothered by the fact that they will get 10 answers or less. I have talked to one or two posters that like soul and i think they are bothered by this.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 09:57 (twenty-two years ago)

How much is it to do with the fact that as ILM is mainly composed of white men under 30 (I know this is a huge generalisation!) we don't feel as if we know the 'language' of jazz, or soul, well enough to discuss it in as much detail and at as much length as we do pop/indie/rock/dance?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

WTF? I'm a white 24-old guy who loves soul and jazz, and I also happen to hate rock/indie/pop. Why would soul have a "language" that I can't understand? That's just essentialism, or racism in reverse.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:16 (twenty-two years ago)

soul and jazz were pop.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it's got more to do with elitism than anything else.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:20 (twenty-two years ago)

jazz and soul have slipped off the pop map so that's why ppl might feel that they don't understand it now.

but if you are interested in music it doesn't matter. you can learn. that's what records are for.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't mean the 'language' of the actual music (and I don't mean EVERYONE on ILM, which is why I said it was a huge generalisation) but rather the 'language' of the discussion of the music. As a lot of people here grew up probably reading NME etcerera, they're used to the idea of people talking and writing about rock/etcetera but not so much jazz/soul. This isn't a 'reverse racism' thing either; it goes equally for classical music. I wouldn't have a clue where to start talking about Arvo Part or Mozart. Most things I've read about jazz or classical have a very academic/musicological tone which I don't understand fully or feel comfortable with; hence I feel that if I was to try and talk about it, I'd be 'found out' by people who do know the 'language'.

Admittedly soul doens't fit this template as well as classical and jazz do.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:23 (twenty-two years ago)

soul and jazz were pop.

Popular, granted, but there's a big difference between 'popular' music and 'pop' music as emerged in the late 50s, early 60s.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:24 (twenty-two years ago)

what was that then?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno, summat bout the influence of radio/jukeboxes over life performance.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:27 (twenty-two years ago)

jazz music sold lots of records. so did soul no?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Yep. Loads.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:29 (twenty-two years ago)

so there's no BIG difference.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:35 (twenty-two years ago)

The 70s stuff is good but the 60s stuff is awful
-- dave q (scrape10...), July 29th, 2003

I've got to ask, what do you mean by this Dave? I have only really gotten into soul in the last few years, but artists like James Carr, Eddie Campbell, Otis Redding, Sam Cooke, Howard Tate, Darrell Banks, Marvin Gaye, O.V. Wright, the Impressions, Carla Thomas, William Bell and many many more. I think the 70s stuff is great, and a good argument could be made that some artists (but only some artists) were putting out albums in the 60s filled with a few hits and a number of misses, but other artists were putting out really amazing albums in the 60s. I don't see how you could say the 60s stuff is awful.

― Jonathan, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Interesting that (as Julio rightly pointed out earlier) the jazz that we do talk about on here is invariably the stuff at the "difficult" end of the genre.

What is it that makes this more appealing to us indie-centric rockists than the more obviously pop(ular) end of that genre (or indeed soul) do you think?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 10:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe it's the lack of a well-known or well-discussed avant in soul that stops the populism-difficulty axis so much ILM discussion is based on being 'set up' for that genre.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:00 (twenty-two years ago)

if you were a music fan who'd neglected buying R&B (soul)
this 1985 NME list woulda set you straight when published back in the day
as it did me...
http://www.rocklist.net/nme_writers.htm
reflected London hipster interest in blaxploitation, rare groove, etc by 1984

other main point of entry was the Guralnick Book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316332739/qid=1059479940/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1087255-4624730?v=glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1841952400/qid=1059479740/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/026-3922761-9840433
(first published 1986; what have they done to the great original cover??)

― Paul (scifisoul), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

That's another point - in Britain at least the absolute critical/cultural ubiquity of 'classic soul' (in EVERY advert, topping every all-time poll etc.) in the mid-late 80s may have had a big long-term reaction/impact.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:06 (twenty-two years ago)

'populism-difficulty' - motown/stax?

― dave q, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah and lo and behold the longest soul thread I can remember was a Motown/Stax T/S. Disco v Funk would probably get similar responses.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:08 (twenty-two years ago)

'in Britain at least the absolute critical/cultural ubiquity of 'classic soul''

plus being uncool, it's the 12-CD music of the aging end of the working class, go to 'karaoke nite' in the shellsuit pub of your choice and see what I mean

― dave q, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:11 (twenty-two years ago)

(ask any sunburnt tattooed 50-something back from the Costa the aesthetic difference between Wilson Pickett and Tom Jones - apparently there isn't one! It's just all good music!)

― dave q, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Stax is hardly that difficult though, is it Dave?

There isn't really a difficult end of soul, which is perhaps why obscurantism is substituted. My way into loving soul - and I'm not proud of this - was to find an area which I could think of as mine, which happened to be country-tinged Southern soul as written about by Barney Hoskyns in "Say It One Time For The Brokenhearted". It was nice to be able to be sniffy and superior about (say) Philly stuff or Motown while I was working out what I liked. Please note that I no longer take that line.

From time to time in that book the "disco was the triumph of Motown over Stax" thing is trotted out in a vaguely disapproving way, and I seem to recall and it's maybe why I have some sympathy for the Stax = rockist soul line, uncomfortable though it is for me.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the point raised by Dr. C above may be on the mark as to why there aren't that many soul threads on ilm, and it's because while many of us may have an interest in soul, and may own quite a few soul cds, we feel like we're really only scratching the surface. I mean, it's one thing to ask a question about !!! or some new band that shows you really don't know what you're talking about (regarding the band or the style of music), but to come on here and ask a question about Curtis Mayfield or Al Green who have such a lengthy history might make the person feel like an idiot for asking in the first place.

― Jonathan, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:17 (twenty-two years ago)

(Above posts have nothing to do with my first post btw. Why did I say the 60s stuff was 'awful'? Dunno, overexposure, plus obvious contrivance of emotional states seemingly confirmed by the amount of people who claim the songs speak for them whenever they get into some situation, you know, "I think I've found 'the one', you know, When A Ma-han-han-han Luuurves a Wo-mannnn" - now that's AC-TING! (A 'use other putdown please' for 'use other songs please' ppl!) And since you know full well the song was cranked out in a music sweatshop for ppl to claim these songs carry some ineffable truth re the deeper elements of human nature seems a bit essentialist and perhaps perniciously so. Anybody who's attended an institute of higher learning in North America knows what I'm talkin' bout, the only people who liked fuckin' Big Chill music were jocks (US usage), now why was that?

― dave q, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:23 (twenty-two years ago)

And let's face it the 70s stuff is better because it GOES ON LONGER. 60s shit is too much like mod pop, too much structure, been in the UK too long and I'm sick of fucking 'pop smarts'. Well I suppose you fuckers need *something*. Whereas, the 70s stuff, got a groove, cool, let it play out, you don't have to get up to change the record every 2 minutes 30 seconds, fuck singles, I'm 'glad they're dead', hack ptooey etc

― dave q, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't the avant end of soul the 'What's Going on'/'Belle'/'Talking Book' concept album side of things?

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with you Dave that the 70s stuff, at the very least, is far more album oriented. A lot of artists from the 60s wanted more control over their music in the 70s and as a result, were putting out great full lengths instead of a few great singles and shoddy filler. But I do think there was a lot of great soul music being made in the 60s, and there were some amazing full lengths put out in that time.

I can see where you're coming from, but I guess to say that the whole decade of soul music is awful just seems extreme.

― Jonathan, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Secret Life Of Plants!

Yes you're probably right Jerry - I think perhaps what I meant was that there is no such thing as the soul Velvet Underground. (This is probably a good thing for soul).

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:34 (twenty-two years ago)

very good question. i'd always kind of assumed it was because 60s motown was so clearly the greatest music ever made that it needed no further discussion.
perhaps the levis,big chill and ugh, good morning vietnam 80s fetishisation discourage hipster discussion while the general capital gold/wedding disco ubiquity mean that it is seen as something which is just there and isn't really noticed - like funky oxygen. but this doesn't stop beatles threads. so i dunno.
i do quite often claim 'motown chartbusters volume 3' as the best album ever if that helps.

the 'bernadette' thread sounds ace - any chance of a link?

― adam b (adam b), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought The Secret Life Of Plants was Soul's equivalent to Tales From Topographic Oceans?

The Soul Velvet Underground = Parliament / Funkadelic?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 11:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 70 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I'm sure it's great, and as a former owner of Hitsville USA I can tell you that is too. But there's something lacking about the latter; it could have been sequenced far more imaginatively than it was, even within strict chronological order if that indeed was a mandate. (Which I don't think it was, actually.) One reason something larger appeals to me is that it seems like more corners, more quirk, might come across; another is that if you want to hear the sound/personalities change and shift it's more interesting to hear it that way than to do so through selected highlights, however many there might happen to be.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 08:34 (twenty-two years ago)

The comp. I'd most like to see (read "own") would be a good (but affordable) one that covers the Stax / Volt label's output from the split with Atlantic in '68 onwards only.

Everything I've seen either seems to include far too much on the pre-'68 material I've already got like this one or it's waaaay more comprehensive (read "expensive") than I'm reaslly looking for, like this one and this one.

If anyone knows of something I've missed....

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 08:52 (twenty-two years ago)

by the way, if you want to really talk about what style ILM doesn't talk about, it's singer-songwriters. started a Warren Zevon thread once that got like nine responses--and this is right after he was diagnosed with cancer!

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 09:14 (twenty-two years ago)

10.- i loved 'sentimental hygiene'. :-)

― joan vich (joan vich), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 09:16 (twenty-two years ago)

''by the way, if you want to really talk about what style ILM doesn't talk about, it's singer-songwriters. started a Warren Zevon thread once that got like nine responses--and this is right after he was diagnosed with cancer!''

er, my iancu dumitrescu thread got what 3-4 responses.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 09:28 (twenty-two years ago)

my baby blak thread is still unanswered :-(

― joan vich (joan vich), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 09:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I only mention it because I'm converting some John Prine CDs. I fucking LOVE John Prine but I don't think I've ever discussed him here. Then again, not much "social energy" surrounding him, either, which is an u&k deciding factor in situations like this.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey I just had a Best of John Prine LP in my hands last night but I put it back -- always been curious about his stuff (embarassing to admit but mostly b/c I love the 10,000 Maniacs version of "Hello in There.")

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 12:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I find it odd that people are moved by soul music (as opposed to liking it). One thing it doesn't seem to do is move me. In this particular instance, when I say 'move' I think I mean something like 'make me sad / wistful / nostalgic / tearful / romantic'. Something about soul music seems to me to militate against most of that stuff, most of the time.

I must admit that I am not sure whether my thoughts on soul music are worth posting. Possibly I don't even really know what is meant by 'soul music', though I have my own notions. But everyone else has stuck an oar in.

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 30 July 2003 12:10 (twenty-two years ago)

The best thing about soul is how bottomless it is. I mostly pick up beat digger comps these days and its remarkable how much great obscure stuff there is beyond the canon.

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 30 July 2003 12:28 (twenty-two years ago)

The Pinefox reminds me of that scene in The Jerk where Steve Martin finally hears the music that touches his soul and it's Glen Miller or something.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think the net (not just ILM) gives proportional representation to soul music. There are quite a few tracks I have on CD compilations that get only three or four hits on Google, usually just in a transcribed playlist. Sometimes I can't find anything. I'm sure the sheer number of obscure singles has something to do with it, but still.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 13:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Why do I?

I am always getting moved by music. That's what it's there for. Are you saying that people who don't get that from soul music are jerks, nerds, dweebs or something?

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 30 July 2003 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

The best single-disc soul comp I know (and there are so so many) is the disc that was put out to accompany Peter Guralnick's book Sweet Soul Music--it has the same name. I'll try to get a tracklisting up in a moment. There are only a few really famous tracks, but it's all absolutely ace soul music. A lot of the comps on Ace, Kent, Goldmine, etc. are good but inevitably represent more run-of-the-mill soul as opposed to the creme de la creme.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

No, no pinefox. Forget the title of the film - that's not the point.

He's adopted by a black family and never feels like he fits in, never getting moved by the blues and soul that surround him. Then one day some big band comes on the radio and he gets touched by that. It's just playing on the cliché of it all happening the other way around.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a great record, amateurist.

― James Ball (James Ball), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

1. True Love Travels on a Gravel Road performed by Percy Sledge - 2:46
2. Nickel and a Nail performed by O.V. Wright - 3:45
3. My Song performed by Aretha Franklin - 3:30
4. Crying in the Streets performed by Perkins, George & The Silver Stars - 3:21
5. Separation Line performed by Laura Lee - 3:57
6. Some Kind of Wonderful performed by Soul Brothers Six - 2:41
7. Rainbow Road performed by Arthur Alexander - 3:27
8. She's About a Mover performed by Otis Clay - 3:01
9. Heart Full of Love performed by Invincibles - 2:04
10. Hold On (To What We've Got) performed by James Carr - 2:59
11. Losing Boy performed by Eddie Giles - 3:15
12. I Paid for the Party performed by Enchanters - 2:53
13. I Stayed Away Too Long performed by Solomon Burke - 2:39
14. Greatest Love performed by Judy Clay - 2:36
15. It's in the Wind performed by Covay, Don & the Goodtimers - 2:52

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos: have we not discussed John Prine?

That's an error. We should. He's great.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know if this has come up yet but I prefer the volumes of Motown Charbusters to the Hitsville USA box. The former have been reissued on CD so there's no excuse not to pick them up. They don't follow strict chronological order, and they mix up major hits with relative rarities, for example R. Dean Taylor's "Gotta See Jane." Taylor was one of the very few white artists on Motown, and he recorded some very odd (for Motown) singles, two of which--the other one is "There's a Ghost in My House"-- were later covered by The Fall.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

That would be Chartbusters...

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

The Atlantic Rhythm & Blues box is great on track selection (and gives not a complete, but a pretty wide picture of the changes in R&B over the decades), but the remastering is terrible--from 1989 or so, I think. Play an Otis track from that set right before the same track from the Stax box and the difference is immediately obvious.

I really like those label-centered comps although they can be overwhelming. The Stax one is obv. tops, but there are also great boxes for Vee-Jay, OKeh, Sue, Specialty, Roulette, etc. etc. Those last ones focus on R&B prior to the emergence of soul, for the most part.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

For more soul suggestions there's also this thread:

I'm a SOUL man. RFI.

― James Ball (James Ball), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

"The Atlantic Rhythm & Blues box is great on track selection (and gives not a complete, but a pretty wide picture of the changes in R&B over the decades), but the remastering is terrible"

I hadn't heard that but that is a terrible shame - I've got it it on vinyl and it all sounds absolutely glorious.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, it's listenable, and perhaps if we hadn't been blessed by all the advances in remastering over the past decade it wouldn't even seem subpar at all. But compared to almost all the more recent reissues of the same or similar material, it sounds submerged, very un-bright.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I love the Atlantic R&B set (that was my first box, back around '88 or '89), interesting to hear about the sound. I always thought it sounded a little dank but figured it was the original masters.

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Amateurist that looks like a very good comp (I only know about two thirds of it and I'd like to hear the other third) but I can't see how it's so head and shoulders above other comps? Also it's all about the Southern which I don't mind because it's my thing but I'd be prepared to bet there are single disc Northern or Motown or Philly sets which do a job just as filler-free.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

That was about when I got it too Mark - was that when it first came out?

I don't think it was my first box-set; but I'd certainly never owned one that big before.

I remember reading about it somewhere and dropping all these huge hints to my girlfriend at the time about what a great birthday present it would make for someone who was just starting to get into R&B.... not realising that this wasn't just 4 or 5 records like I'd assumed but 14!

She bought it for me, bless 'er 'eart; but when I saw the size of the thing (and subsequently discovered how much it had cost*) I realised that she must have thought I was a total greedy bastard for asking her to get it for me!

* - forty quid I believe, which was a lot of money to us in those days!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh yeah, I was thinking about Southern soul specifically and failed to note that. As far as that subject goes it's as good a comp as can be because it draws from a number of labels--large ones and small ones--and the selections are nigh-impeccable (Guralnick has k-good taste in soul music). Personally I prefer Southern soul to Motown or Philly, in general, so it's the perfect comp for my purposes.

Let me explain that last sentence, if I can: in my experience Southern soul is, as a poster remarked above, nearly bottomless in that even among the obscurities there are awesome gems--I discover new ones all the time. Last year I picked up three volumes of The Heart of Southern Soul, which compiles singles from the Excello and related labels, and there are astonishingly good things on there. "Snake Out of Green Grass" by Roshell Anderson (sp?) ranks with almost any soul single I know.

Remember Southern soul was the sound of an entire region, picked up on dozens of labels over two decades. Philly soul was really the province of two or three labels, a handful of producers, etc., over a decade or so (at lest no one seems too concerned with "Philly soul" before 1967 and after 1979)--and Motown of course was just one label (and a bunch of imprints) with a fairly smallish stable of artists. It stands to reason that the former "genre" (if it can even be considered as such) would bare more riches if you look hard enough. Although as noted above there are delicious Motown obscurities to be found as well.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd pick the Chartbusters series over over things too. As amaturist says they've got a great non-chronological pick 'n' mix selection, in the uk at least, they feature sleevenotes by Tony Blackburn, they pass the test of non-giganticsm in that there's only abut 15 songs on each and every one is FANTASTIC (in the case of volume 3 as i mentioned earlier, astonishingly so) and if you are able pick up secondhand copies on vinyl (greatest ever charity shop purchase - volume 3 and 4 for 50p each) the sound quality is just incredible - i don't have the vocabulary to explain how, but playing either of these next to most of my vinyl (particularly the horrible stuff produced during the nineties) is to have a dense fog suddenly lifted.

― adam b (adam b), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Track listings for the first six volumes of Motown Chartbusters (the other six volumes aren't quite as good but still recommended):

Disc: 1
1. Blowin' in the wind - Wonder, Stevie
2. You keep me hanging on - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
3. Standing in the shadows of love - Four Tops
4. It takes two - Gaye, Marvin & Kim Weston
5. When you're young and in love - Marvelettes
6. I know I'm losing you - Temptations
7. What becomes of the brokenhearted - Ruffin, Jimmy
8. Happening - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
9. Seven rooms of gloom - Four Tops
10. How sweet it is (to be loved by you) - Walker, Junior & The All Stars
11. I'm ready for love - Reeves, Martha & The Vandellas
12. Love is here and now you're gone - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
13. Gonna give her all the love I've got - Ruffin, Jimmy
14. I was made to love her - Wonder, Stevie
15. Take me in your arms and love me - Knight, Gladys & The Pips
16. Jimmy Mack - Reeves, Martha & The Vandellas

Disc: 2
1. Ain't nothing like the real thing - Gaye, Marvin & Tammi Terrell
2. Reflections - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
3. If you can want - Robinson, Smokey & The Miracles
4. You keep running away - Four Tops
5. I could never love another (after loving you) - Temptations
6. I heard it through the grapevine - Knight, Gladys & The Pips
7. I'm wondering - Wonder, Stevie
8. I've passed this way before - Ruffin, Jimmy
9. Some things you never get used to - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
10. Gotta see Jane - Taylor, R. Dean
11. Shoo be doo be doo da day - Wonder, Stevie
12. You're my everything - Temptations
13. Honey chile - Reeves, Martha & The Vandellas
14. If I were a carpenter - Four Tops
15. I second that emotion - Robinson, Smokey & The Miracles
16. If I could build my whole world around you - Gaye, Marvin & Tammi Terrell

Disc: 3
1. I heard it through the grapevine - Gaye, Marvin
2. I'm gonna make you love me - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
3. My cherie amour - Wonder, Stevie
4. This old heart of mine (is weak for you) - Isley Brothers
5. I'll pick a rose for my rose - Marv Johnson
6. No matter what sign you are - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
7. I'm in a different world - Four Tops
8. Dancing in the the street - Reeves, Martha Reeves and The Vandellas
9. For once in my life - Stevie Wonder
10. You're all I need to get by - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell
11. Get ready - Temptations
12. Stop her on sight (SOS) - Starr, Edwin
13. Love child - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
14. Behind the painted smile - Isley Brothers
15. I'm a roadrunner - Walker, Junior & The All Stars
16. The tracks of my tears - Robinson, Smokey & The Miracles

Disc: 4
1. I want you back - Jackson Five
2. Onion song - Gaye, Marvin & Tammi Terrell
3. I can't help myself - Four Tops
4. Up the ladder to the roof - Supremes
5. I can't get next to you - Temptations
6. Too busy thinking 'bout my baby - Gaye, Marvin
7. Yester-Me, yester-You, yesterday - Stevie Wonder
8. Someday we'll be together - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
9. ABC - Jackson 5
10. Never had a dream come true - Wonder, Stevie
11. Farewell is a lonely sound - Jimmy Ruffin
12. Do you what you gotta do - Four Tops
13. I second that emotion - Ross, Diana & The Supremes
14. Cloud 9 - Temptations
15. What does it take (to win your love) - JR Walker and the All Stars
16. Reach out and touch (somebody's hand) - Diana Ross

Disc: 5
1. The tears of a clown - Robinson, Smokey
2. War - Starr, Edwin
3. The love you save - Jackson Five
4. Ball of confusion (that's what the world is today) - Temptations
5. It's all in the game - Four Tops
6. Heaven help us all - Wonder, Stevie
7. It's wonderful (to be loved by you) - Jimmy Ruffin
8. Ain't no mountain high enough - Ross, Diana
9. Signed sealed delivered (I'm yours) - Wonder, Stevie
10. Stoned love - Supremes
11. Abraham Martin and John - Gaye, Marvin
12. Still water (love) - Four Tops
13. Forget me not - Reeves, Martha
14. It's a shame - Motown Spinners
15. I'll be there - Jackson Five
16. I'll say forever my love - Wonder, Stevie

Disc: 6
1. I'm still waiting - Ross, Diana
2. I don't blame you at all - Robinson, Smokey & The Miracles
3. We can work it out - Wonder, Stevie
4. Never can say goodbye - Jackson Five
5. These things will keep me lovin' you - Velvelettes
6. Indiana wants me - Taylor, R. Dean
7. River deep mountain high - Supremes & Four Tops
8. Just my imagination (running away with me) - Temptations
9. Nathan Jones - Supremes
10. Simple game - Four Tops
11. Heaven must have sent you - Elgins
12. It's Summer - Temptations
13. Remember me - Ross, Diana
14. Mama's pearl - Jackson Five
15. (Come round here) I'm the one you need - Robinson, Smokey & The Miracles
16. Just seven numbers (can straighten out my life) - Four Tops

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I picked up my third of these, Vol. 6, last year for about £3.99 (CD and no Tony Blackburn, I'm afraid) and was overjoyed to find a song on it that I'd been trying to identify for five years or so, ever since I heard it in a pub in Hackney and failed to ask the bar staff what it was. The Elgins - Heaven Must Have Sent You. A perfect Motown song, you know?

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, that's like the song one would use to illustrate Motown to a martian. Not because it's the best, but because it is so classically MOTOWN--the gospel-based structure, the arrangement, the voices, the lyrical sentiment, etc.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Of course as per one of my first threads:

Hands up if you think the greatest Motown single is "I Can't Give Back the Love I Feel for You" by Rita Wright!

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd love to illustrate Motown to a Martian. I would use the medium of dance and a projector.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Can I just interrupt this thread to say

FUCKING HELL THE FOUR TOPS WERE GOOD!

I do not think there is anything as satisfying in this world as a really, really good singles compilation, and the Tops' Ultimate Collection is surely that.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

WFMU's show "Downtown Soulville" with Mr. Fine Wine is the bomb, folks, and you are LUCKY TODAY because i am giving you the link to the RealAudio archives of his WFMU shows, here.

This guy and other soul rarity DJs around New York (hello Lynne K!!) who have, in my view, created the garage comeback more than anybody else: these rock kids get dressed up in their regulation white belts and leather jackets and messed-up hair and go to Shout at Bar 13 or Don Hill's or Motherfucker, and straight-up rockabilly and Nuggets gets old ofter awhile. Soul DJs realized they had stuff from the same period, often stuff the Nuggets people were TRYING to sound like in the FIRST place, and have been really big successes with these crowds by rescuing all these old 45s that hold more joyous, exuberant, brassy attitude than anybody (by anybody I mean "I", of course) knew existed. Very few ballads (sorry Mark!)

Here's a sample playlist:

Big Bo Thomas & the Arrows How About It (Part 1)
Belita Woods Grounded
Randy & the Soul Citizens Meet Me at the Pool (Part 2)
Bo Dud & Johnny Twist The Get It
Kim Melvin Doin. the Popcorn
Charles Spurling Popcorn Charlie
King Sporty The More Things Change
Johnny Thompson Ain.t No Fool
The Fabulous Soul Eruption A Very Special Friend
Darryl Carter L-O-V-E
Double Soul I Can't Use You
Joe Lee Bottom of the Bag
Morris Vaughan My Love Keeps Growing
Joe Ponds When We Get on Cloud Nine
The Inclines The Hippie
Lee Webber Seventh Son
Little Buck Little Boy Blue
Don Carrington Trio If I Were a Carpenter
Blue Rhythm Combo Take the Funky Feeling
Herb Johnson Settlement Damph F'Aint
Dennis on Drums Black Beauty #2

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Amst Southern soul is the most important soul thing to me, too: I've been collecting Southern stuff slowly since (I suppose) 86 or so, mostly via comps which was why I bridled a bit at your comment. That Barney Hoskyns book is well worth a look if you don't know it already.

It's true that Southern was the sound of a whole region but the mode of production was surely not as industrial or as prolific as in that decade in Philly? I get the impression that with a few exceptions like Fame and Hi, the key studios and acts were run on a much more sporadic basis and the volume of soul output was simply lower.

Can you recommend some Texan soul? I don't know much past bits of Huey Meaux-produced stuff, having concentrated more on Muscle Shoals, Memphisand Nashville and bits of Louisiana.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I second Tracer's WFMU recommendation. There's a similar show on Sundays on WNUR in Chicago.

Texas soul? Hmmm... Archie Bell and the Drells?

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Etta James = LA soul! Yes such a thing is a)possible b)classic! If you're into that James M Cain vibe, check into a fleabag motel, pour a few slugs and have a listen to this while you drink yourself into a stupor with a gun under your pillow! Seriously great stuff

― dave q, Thursday, 31 July 2003 10:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Can you stretch the definition of Texas soul to fit "Wasted Days"? Oh you already mentioned Huey Meaux, sorry I need coffee

― dave q, Thursday, 31 July 2003 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I've just been reading about the time when Etta James played with the Grateful Dead on New Year's Eve:

'Etta comes offstage, raving about Hairy Garcia. "That motherfucker Hairy in there, that blew me out man, the motherfucker can play!"
"Etta, it's Jerry, Jerry Garcia"
"Harry? Fuck you! Fuckin' Harry can play, man."'

― James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 31 July 2003 10:11 (twenty-two years ago)

the murder inc sound has lotsa 70s soul touches now that i think about it.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 31 July 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

contemporary R&B is swamped with '70s soul influence (very self-conscious in many cases). what's also interesting is that it seems to be sort of running away from 80s/late '70s influence at the same time, little of that casio keyboard, drum pads, peabo bryson sort of thing.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 31 July 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

just 10 years ago or so BET was swamped with that kind of crooner stuff, now it seems almost entirely absent.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 31 July 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

The problem for me is the mad generalisations we get on this thread, the kind of "soul is [x]" formulation that we wouldn't get for, say, rock. And that we are struggling to talk about soul on anything like its own terms and instead flailing around for comparisons to other genres and discourses.

R&B was not a term invented for soul. It was a renaming, for the better, of the old "race charts" and was applied to all black styles for a long time. It now usefully if confusingly describes two distinct styles: that dancier version of the blues that doesn't quite become soul or rock 'n' roll (say Bo Diddley, Rosco Gordon), and the new dancey soully stuff like Beyonce. It's rare for any problems to arise in this dual usage - probably less rare than the same difficulty with 'garage'. Because of its link to the charts, which I believe are still going, I would imagine that R&B will mean something again in the future, and there will be old people saying "That isn't R&B! R&B is TLC and Destiny's Child! Heresy!"

Naff ads and soul's position in the '80s as some easy signifier of a certain feebleminded brand of cool hasn't destroyed much of it for soul fans. I used to be in a few Yahoo groups devoted to soul, and they were just like a certain kind of indie hipster - they had their agreed canon, they were sniffy about anyone expressing a love for anyone too obvious, they preferred it if their favourites had never made the charts, and they loathed anything outside their rigid paradigms.

Matos: Warren Zevon being diagnosed with cancer may have got nine responses: I started an RIP thread for Homer Banks, a man who not only made some terrific records but was half of the number 2 songwriting team at Stax, so was near to the heart of one of the key musical moments in history, and got, as I recall, one reply. (A good one from Jesse Hill, I am pretty sure it was.)

There is this stultefying respect for soul. One person I know once described me as "the only person with better taste than me," which mystified me because although the definition of good taste is clearly what I like, I kind of assume that other people think the same about their own taste. I asked him what that meant, and it was that I had great taste in loads of areas, much like him, but that I was also a serious soul fan, and while he knew that was great music he didn't care for it, so therefore I had even better taste than him!

I tried for a while to get some discussion about soul here, as it is my absolute favourite music ever, but it never really went anywhere. The way it was treated reminded me rather of something like Mojo, which occasionally remembers that it is pretending to be a music mag and not specifically a rock mag, so in between special issues on Creedence Clearwater Revival or the Small Faces they'll shove in a soul special. I think that James Brown or Al Green or Smokey Robinson or Aretha Franklin or Marvin Gaye are every bit as worth a whole issue of a genuinely general music mag as the Stones/Who/Beatles, but this seems to be very much a minority view. We get the same thing here - POX Nirvana or Dinosaur Jr, or reggae. I want a discussion about what made Al Green a great singer, not "name some good soul records".

This place is no more a general music site than Mojo, and it's in no sense an obligation on ILM to discuss everything in equal depth or with equal enthusiasm - I think I'm very rare here in knowing and caring far more about Al Jackson than My Bloody Valentine. Most people are more interested in guitar music and in what's happening now, and there's nothing remotely wrong with that. I would say that if I want the kind of detailed discussion of soul that would suit me I could go to those soul groups I mentioned, but in fact they were deathly dull places. The only thing I liked was that I got to chat with Swamp Dogg some on one of them, which was as special to me as finding Momus hanging around here presumably is to some others.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 9 August 2003 17:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Marin OTM to the power of ten.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 9 August 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...

I'm sorry, I haven't read all the posts here, so maybe someone allready said this.

But isn't the reason that there is basically no one today that holds the tradition of classic soul? Every year there comes artist that are compared to i.e. Bob Dylan, but I haven't heard a reference to classic soul in ages.

And todays soul is just not interesting enough. Not because the classic soul was more genuine (as someone allready said - it all came out of a couple of hit-making sweat shops), but because the singers and song writers just doesn't stand up to the challenge.

― Kristoffer Burstedt (Asfaltsmannen), Thursday, 14 September 2006 16:06 (nineteen years ago)

And (sorry for missing this part) that makes classic soul a thing of the past, not something that is still around, still something to discuss. It's much like a museum (allthough a great one).

― Kristoffer Burstedt (Asfaltsmannen), Thursday, 14 September 2006 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

four years pass...

RIP ilxor Martin Skidmore

― curmudgeon, Saturday, 30 July 2011 18:12 (fourteen years ago)

six months pass...

very tempted by this

http://img1.etsystatic.com/il_fullxfull.292077865.jpg

― mark e, Wednesday, 22 February 2012 13:33 (fourteen years ago)

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