White dopes on Hope: Contemporary "Christian Rock" and Neo-Gospel.

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I'll probably go to hell for asking this, but....

I asked this question in another thread...but it bears repeating:
"Can someone please explain to me why anglos cannot merge Gospel and any other kind of music without sucking the soul and passion out of both genres simultaneously?"
As in: why does all the modern Christian Rock, Gospel and Gospel-oid music -- a music that is supposedly suffused with spirit and life -- is the most spiritless and lifeless music out there?
If this music is directly linked to a fount of cosmic love...why does it sound so listless, vacuous, unexcited and emotionally empty?
If this music is directly linked to the force of creation...why is it so uncreative and derivative?
If this music is directly linked to the infinite intellect of God...why is it so slackjawed, unsubtle and intellectually stultifying?

Previous threads that skirt this issue without answering it:
"The Evils of Christian Rock"
"Stealth Christian Rockers"
"can christian music really be alternative?"

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 11:21 (twenty-two years ago)

coz the devil gets all the best tunes...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 11:23 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.lionel-fanthorpe.com/image/lionel4.jpg

God has the best musicians, though.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 11:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Wozzis? Is that Burl Ives?

No, really. I really want to know. Why does Christian Rock have no "spirit" or "zest" when, by definition, it should be dripping with it.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

because zealots suck. Jesus even said so.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 14:36 (twenty-two years ago)

But how does this zealotry make the music *sound* so lifeless?

(side note: this was the most fitting thread evah in the "Why In The Name Of All That Is Holy...?" catgeory.)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

because they're too concentrated on THE MESSAGE rather than THE MOVEMENT (as in the movement of soul & hips)
a lot of overtly political music suffers from the same lack of imagination

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

sounds like a plausible theory.
Does anyone have any amplifications/rebuttals?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

no 'soul' or 'passion'? where can i get some of this stuff?

― dave q, Tuesday, 22 July 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

they'll bring it to you.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

It comes in small tin cans and is full of herballicious goodness.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Because they're fucking Calvinists and Puritans, that's why. Their church music sucks - why would their pop music be any better?

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Except those Pentecostal types - they're really emotional.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, but the doom metal band Trouble was pretty cool, and they had a Christian overtone. Although maybe the fact that they were also heroin addicts made their music sound better and gave em more spirit.

― Cacaman Flores, Tuesday, 22 July 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Songs about people burning in hell can be ubercreepy.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 22 July 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

The Christian music subculture's habit of applauding message over musicianship doesn't help foster musical quality.

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 22 July 2003 22:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Trouble = fuckin' classic! I interviewed them once and they said they weren't Xtians, but then they said alot of really weird shit so maybe they were just fuckin' with me. (See also - Sir Lord Baltimore)

― dave q, Wednesday, 23 July 2003 09:16 (twenty-two years ago)

"She shot Syd through the head
And Syd died and went to hell
And he burned and he burned and he yelled
I never been relaxed, never relaxed, never relaxed

Now the Devil said this ain't fair
'Cause people who come here have had their share of comfort
So he sat Syd in a reclining chair
But it was an electric chair
Never rela-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-axed
Never relaxed, never relaxed, never relaxed"

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 23 July 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Larry Norman was okay, I think. Of course, he occasionally dabbled with the dark side of the Force.

― Al Andalous, Wednesday, 23 July 2003 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

A lot of white mainstream music right now (rock/pop/country) is thematically concerned with personal feelings and emotional entitlement -- whether that's an entitlement fulfilled or betrayed.
This means that a lot of attempts to make white christian rock abide by the thematic terms of the day -- so they sing about joy/praise rather than ecstacy, or about doubt/guilt rather than fear.

Additionally, there's not a great tradition of energy music in most of the white christian churches in America (some pentacostalists excepted), so attempts to take the music to deeper physical (rather than thematic) levels are doomed to imitation of what's already available.

I guess what I mean is that secular music about fucking and sacred music about surrender are always better when the music comes from the same place as the inspiration.

Gibberish, sorry. But it's a subject that I care about and am interested in.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

there might be a nugget of truth in there. I will have go off and contemplate this.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 23 July 2003 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

i think that's just where the culture is. passionate, inspired, artistic (white) people turn away from conventional religion cuz it doesn't really seem to understand or value them at all. jesus probably wouldn't even recognize christians nowadays (blahblahblah). it seems to define a certain kind of culture more than feelings or beliefs (prez bush, america and apple pie, etc.). i bet there are many christians who keep kinda low key about it since they don't culturally relate to people who like to advertise themselves as christian. you know, some people just want to make music and others just want advertise christianity in a quick, easy, 'hip' way (ie. music)

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Thursday, 24 July 2003 03:50 (twenty-two years ago)

you assume that the music produced by self-proclaimed Christian Rockers is directly linked to a fount of cosmic love/force of creation/infinite intellect of god and then you ask why the music sucks. maybe the problem lies in your assumption.

low are christians and their music shoots all of your arguments to heck.

― dan (dan), Thursday, 24 July 2003 05:05 (twenty-two years ago)

*slaps forehead* yes of course your one example disproves everything

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 24 July 2003 05:48 (twenty-two years ago)

low are mormons and you'd be extremely hard pressed to describe their music as "message music". it's good music that happens to be made by religious people, not dogma set to lazy melodies

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 24 July 2003 06:08 (twenty-two years ago)

calvinism roxx u r all going to hell

― dave q, Thursday, 24 July 2003 08:12 (twenty-two years ago)

(*trapdoor opens in the world. ILM collectively falls into a gaping fiery pit.*)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 24 July 2003 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)

ok why does country work so well then ?
even modern country stuff (see martina mcbride and her angels)

― anthony easton (anthony), Thursday, 24 July 2003 12:15 (twenty-two years ago)

well, I'm tempted to say "because country still is bound to the Earth, in touch with day to day concerns of human beings and not a pushy mouthpeice for a proselytzing ideology." but I can't say that anymore. Because everything country I've heard since 9/11 just sounds like a mixture of Army Recruitment ad, Neo-Gospel crossover and maudlin sermon.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 24 July 2003 14:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Angels in current country music (and white, middle-American imagery) are gentle, helpful, loving teddy bears. Angels as they traditionally have appeared in christian imagery, including throughout the bible, are so profoundly terrifying and otherwordly that humans are struck dumb, or turn aside in panic and fear, at their appearance.

This dilution of imagistic power is reflected in the accompanying music. Sez me.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Thursday, 24 July 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

(Somewhat offtopic -- but interesting nonetheless -- bit o' trivia.)
Some Mythology to ponder: The Elves of ancient myth were not shrimpy guys in little green waistcoats. They used to be the illegitimate spawn of terrifyingly powerful Angelic beings. All of the Gods of Celtic (and most of those from Norse) myths are actually "Elves"; Its only after Christianity came in and mucked things up that the "Elves" degenerated into midgets who run away from kids after their lucky charms.
An ancient Elf would massacre the kids and possibly enslave their souls.
< /THREAD HIJACK>

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 24 July 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

i think that's how Tolkien helped things, by changing some of the imagery from the Keebler-elves back to the fuck-yo-ass-up-orlando-bloom-elves.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 24 July 2003 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm still confused by the question--"why does commercial derivative soft rock crap made by musicians marketed as 'christian rockers' not sound divinely inspired?" it strikes me as a dumb question.

― dan (dan), Thursday, 24 July 2003 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Orlando Bloom is not badass enough.
Even Celeborn and Elrond combined would not have the raw power of the ancient myths.
You need someone 7'11", who 'glows'. Just think...it took an *army* of the Sons of Mil just to subdue 20 Tuatha de Danann. They couldn't succeed in actually killing any of them though.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 24 July 2003 18:18 (twenty-two years ago)

wait a second...pagans have crappier rock than christians (tori amos!!)

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Thursday, 24 July 2003 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, no. First off, Tori Amos isn't pagan. and Second: Tori Amos doesn't suck (as much)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 24 July 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I'M A LEPRECHAUN NOT AN ELF, FUCKWIT.
http://www.lavasurfer.com/lucky2.gif

― L.C. Leprechaun (lolitacorpus), Friday, 25 July 2003 07:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Leprechaun (...and pookas ...and redcaps) are all species of Elf.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 25 July 2003 12:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Neil Gaiman to thread.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Friday, 25 July 2003 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Angels in current country music (and white, middle-American imagery) are gentle, helpful, loving teddy bears.

i just wanted to say that i really like this contrast. I wonder how the imagery has devolved into this state.

heh. i keep trying to find a Jean Teasdale column about this, but am having no such luck yet.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Friday, 25 July 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Never, ever pass up the opportunity to stop at a roadsie "angel museum" if you're traveling around in the US, by the way. Do you all have these pseudo-religious abominations in other countries?

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Friday, 25 July 2003 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Where do you think they started? Christianity is pretty dang new to America compared to other parts of the world.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 25 July 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah. If you don't believe the Mormons, that is.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Friday, 25 July 2003 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Mormons are just one M away from...

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 25 July 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Funny, that. their patron angel is named Moroni

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 25 July 2003 16:39 (twenty-two years ago)

*insert your own pasta joke here*

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Friday, 25 July 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Never, ever pass up the opportunity to stop at a roadsie "angel museum" if you're traveling around in the US, by the way

found it!

Crossing the state line into Wisconsin, we seek out Beloit's Angel Museum, an old database target with the note: "Owner/collector wears silver angel costume with wings." After a little driving around, we find the church housing the World's Largest Collection of Angels. Joyce Berg, 63, doesn't own the museum, but most of it is her collection... and she does wear an angel costume.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Friday, 25 July 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Yep, I've been to that one. There are others, too. Beware the majesty that is Angel Museum!

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Friday, 25 July 2003 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)

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